Listener Rebuttal: Lily's Invisibility Cloak?

Andrew: All right, now that we got that out of the way, next rebuttal, Jamie? [laughs]

Jamie: It's from Amy, 24, from Durham, but not the Durham I go to. And I...

Andrew: Awww, I got excited for a second.

Jamie: So did I, so did I. We can meet up.

Ben: Do you mean that second rate UK university?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oooh.

Jamie: Yes, thank you, Benjamin, thank you, Benjamin. Ben, remind me how much you pay for college each year. Go on, just tell me. Just tell me.

Ben: I am not in college yet, but it will be pretty expensive.

Jamie: Ben, you will be in college. Oh, right.

Ben: Well then, I can think how cheap your second rate education is.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: It's better than your education.

Ben: Ooo...

Kevin: That's why Stephen Hawking is a teacher at Oxford.

Jamie: He is.

Kevin: He is.

Jamie: Actually, he isn't. Well, he was at Cambridge.

Kevin: Oh wait, is he?

Ben: I'm sorry, guys.

Kevin: Get your facts right. Get your facts right.

Kevin: Oh, you're right.

Andrew: An e-mail...

Ben: Us dumb Americans. Dumb Americans.

[Andrew laughs]

Kevin: Oh yeah, how can I get that wrong?

Jamie: Kevin. Kevin, Gonville and Caius College, Cambridge. Get it right. Get it right. Can we get back to this, or are we just going to dwell on this?

Andrew: Yeah, go.

Jamie: On Ben's second rate education, not mine.

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: Okay. This is Amy, 24, from Durham, North Carolina. She says: Hi, I've been listening to your show for some weeks now but finally decided to send in a comment today. In your discussion about James' cloak (in 56), you touched on the point that the cloak might be Lily's (and refuted it later but not completely). I think that the cloak cannot belong to Lily, because Dumbledore said that the cloak belonged to James and as we all know, Dumbledore was as precise in what he says.

Andrew: And Jo proved us wrong.

Ben: Yeah, we already got owned on this one.

Jamie: Yeah, we did. Well, why don't we just be owned again since we did screw up. Come on.

Andrew: The point of this rebuttal is the last two paragraphs. PS.

Jamie: Okay. Also, the mundane reason (as you mentioned) why Dumbledore had the cloak can be that James left it with him to be used by the Order (given the fact that cloaks are rare), and Dumbledore could not return it back to the Potters before they died because he did not know who the Secret-Keeper was. Given Dumbledore's role in safeguarding the Potters, and Wormtail's character, I think there was very little time lost between his being Secret-Keeper and Voldemort arriving at the Potters' doorstep. Dumbledore could not have also been present at the time of the Potters' death, as apart from the fact that he could not have just stood by, he would also need to have known who was the Secret-Keeper for that. He would have been told in some format directly by Wormtail, and then he could have given the evidence against Sirius later.

Andrew: [correcting Jamie] Not have.

Jamie: What do you guys think?

Andrew: He could not have.

Jamie: Sorry? Oh yeah, "and he could not have given the evidence against Sirius later."

Andrew: I think that's a very interesting theory.

Jamie: You didn't hear a word?

[Andrew and Jamie laugh]

Andrew: No. I read it. That's why it's in there.

Jamie: After all I said Andrew, you just thought you'd say that?

Andrew: No. I think it's an interesting theory.

Jamie: Anyone else?

Andrew: That's all I had to say. [laughs]

Jamie: Anymore slightly more detailed comments? [laughs]

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: No?

Andrew: Is that bad? [laughs]

Jamie: No, that was excellent. Good. Excellent. Well done, everyone. Well done, everyone.

Andrew: Okay.

Jamie: The discussion this week is clearly up to scratch as usual.

Andrew: Well, you usually have something to add.

Jamie: Well, I was reading it.

[Andrew and Jamie laugh]

Andrew: I know. Go ahead, read the next one.

Listener Rebuttal: Dumbledore Gave The Cloak to Hagrid?

Jamie: Okay. Well, sorry, Amy. No one has any comments at all, which is bad. Okay, this is from Vanessa, 25, from California. Hope you're coming to the podcast.

I wonder if Dumbledore gave the Cloak to Hagrid to use, perhaps to "overhear" Wormtail giving access to Godric's Hollow, because he had to know the secret location to go in and rescue Harry.

That brings up an interesting point.

Ben: Is the Cloak even big enough to fit Hagrid, though? [laughs]

Jamie: No, no. [laughs]

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Jamie: It would cover, like, one hand or something. Okay, that does bring up an interesting point, though. If you hear somebody telling somebody the location, do you know it, because they weren't actually telling you and, apparently, you have to be told. It has to be a conscience effort on the part of the Secret Keeper to tell you the location. So, but anyway:

Obviously, Sirius' motorcycle couldn't be hidden with the Cloak along with Hagrid, and it's almost too much to consider it could even cover Hagrid...

There you go!

...alone except that Harry, Ron, and Hermione can all fit underneath it together. The only problem with this is, Dumbledore always thought the Secret Keeper had been Sirius all the way until Prisoner of Azkaban. If Hagrid knew who the Secret Keeper was, wouldn't he have passed that information along?

Anyone have any comments?

Ben: Of course he would've.

Jamie: Assuming he knew, of course.

Ben: Yeah, but I think you can't...

Jamie: You can't assume that he knew.

Ben: Yeah. I don't know.

Micah: Well, I think it goes back to exactly what she said in terms of him having in his possession at the time that James died.

Jamie: Yeah.

Micah: I think its more important that he had it physically on him in some capacity when the event took place. Like, I'm not saying that he's responsible in any way for what happened, but it makes it seem like, almost, Dumbledore shouldn't have had it in his possession at that time, that it should have been used for something else.

Andrew: Hmmm.

Jamie: Hmmm. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, that sounds right. Someone else read the next one.

Listener Rebuttal: Petunia and the Invisibility Cloak

Andrew: This leads into our main discussion, which is why we have it in here. Sort of leads in. Evelyn, 41, of Woodstock, Canada, eh?, talks about - also talks about the Invisibility Cloak.

Regarding the Invisibility Cloak, I believe it is because of Petunia that Dumbledore has the Cloak. Petunia, although she loathed the wizarding world, did love her sister. Petunia went to Godric's Hollow...

Now, this is her theory: Petunia went to Godric's Hollow on that fateful night to try and convince her sister to leave James and the wizarding world behind. When Voldemort shows up, James, or perhaps Lily, covers Petunia with the Cloak, since she has no magical means to protect herself. Petunia watches in horror as first James, then Lily are killed. She also observes the curse which backfired on Voldemort and watches him flee, close to death. A short while later, Snape (who of course is one of the good guys) shows up to try to warn the Potters that they are in danger (having extracted this information from the traitor, Wormtail). Obviously he was too late, but Petunia recounts exactly what happened. Together, Snape and Petunia retell the dreadful tale to Dumbledore. It is because of Petunia’s eye-witness account of Snape trying to warn the Potters that Dumbledore trusts Snape. Dumbledore also took the invisibility cloak from Petunia and modified her memory so she has no recollection of these horrific events."

Jamie: Can I just add that after this happened, Snape and Petunia lived happily ever after.

[Kevin laughs]

Jamie: Until the end of time. And they’re still together.

[Andrew hums dramatically]

Jamie: That is very interesting though.

Kevin: Yeah it sounds pretty...

Andrew: Well, I thought...

Kevin: ...possible.

Andrew: Yeah, I thought it was kind of cool.

Micah: It’s a good theory, but again it would go back to the fat that James or Lily had the Invisibility Cloak...

Jamie: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: ...in their possession. And she clearly states...

Jamie: And also...

Micah: ...that Dumbledore does. Unless she’s talking more generically. That’s - I think that she needs to be more specific. Because at the time of his death could be a generic...

Jamie: Yeah, and also...

Micah: ...period of time. As oppose to the specific event - sorry.

Jamie: Also... Oh, no, its fine. Also, how much did Petunia care about Lily?

Andrew: Well, that’s the thing because this is where her whole theory stems from. Now, according to this rebuttal, she says that Petunia did love her sister.

Kevin: Yeah, I don’t...

Andrew: Now, I don’t know if that is fact...

Kevin: Yeah, I think it's just an assumption.

Andrew: ...because I don’t remember really that. This is just part of her theory. However, as a sister, you would think you would always have underlying love for her. About her sister.

Jamie: Yeah, I guess but, she didn’t talk very highly of her, you know, normally. So, I don’t know.

Andrew: Well, not now. But I mean, I talk trash on my sister every single day.

Jamie: You still lover her don’t you Andrew?

Ben: You still think she’s hot.

[Andrew sighs in annoyance]

Jamie: Yeah [laughs]

Andrew: No.

[Andrew and Micah laughs]

Andrew: No, I don’t. And I never did say that. so I don’t know what you're talking about.

[Awkward pause].

Andrew: Oh, okay. "PS...I love your show and listen to it regularly. Today is my birthday and it would be a great birthday present to get a mention on air!!!! Although I already feel that this theory which just 'fell into my head today' is birthday present enough. Keep up the great work. It keeps all of us Harry Potter fans occupied while we not-so-patiently await Book Seven."

So, Happy Birthday Evelyn of Canada.

Ben: [singing] Happy Birthday to you!

Main Discussion: Petunia Dursley

Andrew: And this does lead into our Main Discussion this week which is Petunia Dursley.

Jamie: But what about ...

Andrew: A character...

Jamie: But what about Dumbledore’s will?

Andrew: I’m moving that because...

Jamie: That’s very funny though.

Andrew: ...the rebuttal.

Jamie: Oh, right.

Andrew: What? The will? Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, it's quite funny.

Andrew: It's clever.

Jamie: When are you reading it? You reading it later?

Andrew: After. After the discussion.

Jamie: Okay, cool.

Andrew: Character Discussion on Petunia Dursley; we haven’t done one of these in a while. Aunt Petunia: aged around her thirties or forties. Petunia is a tall and gaunt with blonde hair and an almost abnormally long neck. She has a long bony horse like fee with long teeth and large blue eyes. Petunia is nosey and likes to gossip. She has a shrill voice, and a brisk, snappish manner. She is an immaculate housekeeper and keeps her home (number four, Privet Drive) spotless. Petunia despises magic or abnormality in any form and likes to act as though the magical world does not exist. But there are some strange things going on with Petunia.

Jamie: There are.

Andrew: And that’s what we're going to discuss today.

Micah: She sounds like quite a catch.

[Jamie and Andrew laughs]

Jamie: She does.

Andrew: Micah...

Jamie: I’d go on a date with her.

Andrew: ...got a little thing for her?

Petunia The Squib

Micah: Yeah, All right. So, one of the biggest questions surrounding Aunt Petunia is, is she a Squib? And from JKR's own website she said Aunt Petunia has never performed magic nor will she ever be able to do so. If Petunia...

Jamie: But she hasn’t said - sorry, sorry.

Micah: No, go ahead.

Jamie: I was going to say that she hasn’t specifically said that that she is a Squib though.

Ben: That she isn’t a Squib or she is.

Micah: That's an interesting point.

Jamie: No, I mean, she has dodged the word basically...

Kevin: Yeah, she...

Jamie: On purpose it looks like. She says "she hasn’t ever performed magic nor will she be able to do so."

Kevin: But a Squib can...

Jamie: That could be due to - that could be due to emotional trauma, you know, like when Tonks couldn’t transform herself after the death of Sirius. You know it could be that she’s never been able to perform magic because she hates the thought of being abnormal in her world, so she can’t, you know, bring herself to do it, and she won’t ever be able to do it because she won’t ever be able to get over the thought of being abnormal in her world. So, she could be completely magical but she just can’t do it.

Micah: But, I mean, that is almost the direct definition of a squib, if you look it up.

Jamie: No, no, no, no, I thought that a squib was somebody who was a non-magical person. So, with all their heart they could not perform magic.

Micah: Right, but, and JKR has specifically said she has never performed magic, nor will she ever be able to do so.

Jamie: No, but what I’m saying is that there is a difference between being magical and not being able to do magic and not actually, you know, having the requirements in yourself to do magic. Does that make sense, or not?

Kevin: I think it makes sense. I mean...

Ben: I don’t know.

Kevin: She can have, like, a magic background, but not be able to perform the actual magic.

Jamie: Exactly, exactly. You could have... It’s like this... It’s like... Okay, okay, this is a very weird...

Kevin: Analogy?

Jamie: Yeah, analogy, but say you have got roller skates on, okay? You are capable of roller skating, but you could be so scared of falling over that you could - you cannot do it and you won’t be able to do it because you can’t get over your fear. That’s different to somebody who doesn’t have roller skates on, so clearly could not ever roller skate because they don’t have the tools to roller skate.

Micah: Okay.

Jamie: Make of it what you will. Make of it what you will.

Micah: So, you’re saying it’s more of her own will that she’s not – never able to do it, as opposed to her...

Jamie: Yeah, precisely. But...

Andrew: But is she a witch or is she a Squib?

Jamie: I’m not saying that, but she could be magical though. JKR... That looks like she’s dodged the Squib issue, by saying that. You know she hasn’t actually said she is not a Squib, she’s saying that she hasn’t performed magic.

Micah: I think that if anything, it proves that she possibly could be a Squib. Doesn't it?

Jamie: No, because it just says that she hasn’t performed magic and she won’t be able to perform magic, not that she does not have the ability to do magic.

Andrew: But that’s not the definition of Squib.

Jamie: No, I thought that a squib was a non-magical person. They cannot do...

Andrew: Born of Muggle or wizard parents.

Jamie: Yeah. Look at it like this, a wand does not perform spells. There’s something inside you that the wand acts as a catalyst for that causes the spell to come out, which is why you can do magic without a wand. If Petunia – sorry, if a Squib pointed a wand and learned all the spells in the world it wouldn’t matter because they don’t have that thing inside them that is put through the wand and turns into the spell, you know? It’s like that whereas – that’s a squib, whereas a person who just cannot do magic, perhaps due to emotional trauma, as I said, is somebody who does have that thing inside them, but is unable to channel it, for reasons of, I don’t know, you know? Emotion, morality, you know? Fear, something like that and that could be Petunia, instead of her being a Squib. I mean, I’m not saying she is like that, but it is a possibility, considering how Jo’s worded it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: No, I understand what you’re saying and Andrew just brought up the next part of it is, if Petunia were a Squib it would mean that her family was magical, but we’re told in fact that Lily was Muggle-born.

Jamie: Wait, so...

Andrew: So, okay, so that answers the question.

Micah: Well if JKR is telling us the truth. Which she...

Andrew: Of course she is. Well, why would she lie to us?

Jamie: Because she hates us.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: [In a sad voice] She wouldn’t do that to me, would she?

Jamie: So wait, you’d be saying that if she’s a squib her entire family would be wizards and witches?

Micah: Well, one of them would have to be.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: One of her parents would have to be.

Jamie: Yes, you’re right. Oh yeah. I don’t know. Yes, that’s true. But Lily was Muggle-born, right? So...

Andrew: But that can’t be...

Jamie: So, she couldn’t be a Squib.

Andrew: Yeah. Right, right. So...

Jamie: My theory holds some weight. Maybe?

What Is So Surprising About Petunia?

Micah: So, if she’s not a squib and she’s not a witch, what information are we going to learn about her in Book 7 that’s so revealing, so surprising?

Kevin: She’s half a house-elf.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: It must be something that she knows.

Jamie: Of course it is.

Andrew: There must be some little factoid that she knows that she'll have to tell Harry.

Ben: Well, she's already - we've already seen that she has quite a bit of knowledge of the magical world that we didn't know about, like with the Dementor and stuff. So...

Jamie: Oh yeah, precisely.

Ben: There's more to Petunia than meets the eye. I think Jo said that actually.

Micah: She did, so to me that means there is more to her, as opposed to what she knows.

Jamie: Yeah, but she clearly does know something that, you know...

Ben: That's - that we don't know. [laughs]

Jamie: Yeah, exactly. Wow, that's a big step we've taken there, isn't it?

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: That is a big revelation, yeah.

Jamie: One small step for MuggleCast, one giant leap for Harry Potter fans.

Andrew: Well, that's the thing. That is why we included that rebuttal this week because she's suggesting that Petunia actually was at Godric's Hollow and she saw all this going down, and might connect the cloak.

Jamie: [sings] Down, down in an earlier round, And Sugar, we're going down swinging.

Ben: I don't think that's true.

Andrew: Then what do you think is true, Ben?

Ben: I don't think that made sense. If Dumbledore was given the cloak before James' death by James, why would Petunia have it after he died?

Jamie: Yeah, I don't know about that. But, I don't know.

Andrew: She sort of explained her theory, but nonetheless. All right, move along, Micah.

Ben: [sings] Move along.

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