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Andrew: Today's MuggleNet podcast is brought to you by Borders. In May, thousands of Harry Potter fans descended upon New Orleans for the Phoenix Rising conference. Borders was there to take in the sites and share a lively discussion of the series that has bewitched the world with some of Harry's most dedicated fans. Listen in and watch the action yourself; check out the Phoenix Rising Borders Book Club discussion at BordersMedia.com/HarryPotter, or click on the Borders banner at the top of the MuggleNet page.
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Andrew: Because MuggleCast has hit the road, this is MuggleCast Episode 102 for July 28th, 2007, live from Tulsa, Oklahoma and St. Louis, Missouri.
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Andrew: How's everyone doing today?
Andrew: Welcome to MuggleCast live here in Tulsa. This is a huge crowd, thank you everyone for coming out. Round of applause for yourselves.
Ben: A bit of a spoiler - whoa.
Ben: Bit of a spoiler warning, if you haven't read the book, that's what we're going to talk about, and yesterday in Santa Fe, we made some guy really mad. So...
Andrew: He stormed out. He was mumbling something. He was like... [grumbling noise]
Mikey: So, yeah.
Jamie: If you don't want to get spoiled, leave now.
Andrew: Anyway, yeah. Actually, we have one. Sorry.
Mikey: We're sorry. We're talking about Book Seven; it came
Ben: Yeah, so, Dumbledore made all those Horcruxes.
Mikey: Definitely come back for Alex here, and The Remus Lupins, because they're pretty awesome.
Andrew: But there's a few things we want to talk about today. Anyone been catching up on the news lately? There's been a lot of Book 7 developments in the news. I check MuggleNet when I want my news. That's where I go.
Mikey: That's where I go.
Andrew: But, a couple big things. First of all we found out the character who got - who was saved. The reprieve.
Ben: The reprieve.
Mikey: The reprieve.
Andrew: The reprieve, Arthur Weasley. Arthur Weasley.
Mikey: He didn't die. He lived, which was good.
Andrew: Was slated to die...
Jamie: But even more so , he was supposed to be killed in Book 5 wasn't he?
Andrew: Right. Yeah.
Jamie: Rather than Book 7, which is interesting.
Andrew: And I think Jo said that she decided not to kill him off because Harry had already lost a father figure.
Ben: Like ten of them.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, quite a few of them.
Andrew: So, that was a big deal. Then, then we found out the two characters who weren't slated to die, but then died. Tonks and our buddy...
Mikey: Remus, over there. Remus and Tonks.
Andrew: Remus Lupin had...
Jamie: Two of the most pointless deaths in the history of the books probably, completely.
Ben and Mikey: They didn't even have a death scene.
Mikey: They didn't even have a scene where it was, like, they died.
Andrew: Yeah, does anyone have an idea for why Jo would've done that?
Jamie: Because she's...
Andrew: Go ahead. Wow!
Jamie: I was going to say mean, but thought better of it.
Ben: Yeah, because I think things had to look a little more balanced because it's like, all the bad guys died. So you got to throw in a few good guys.
Jamie: But they didn't even get a death scene, it was just - they just said, she just said that they died, that was it.
Ben: There weren't enough pages. I don't know.
Jamie: Yeah, she ran out.
Ben: She couldn't be bothered to think of a way to...
Mikey: Even Hedwig got a death scene, and...
Mikey: I guess Hedwig is a little bit more important than Remus, huh Alex?
Jamie: Yeah, she must...
Mikey: He's not even in here for me to make fun of him.
Andrew: Was everyone very surprised with the Hedwig death? That was...
Mikey: I was sad.
Andrew: That was a very - that was the very first one. Everyone was like, "What? It's so innocent." So, it's sad.
Jamie: But I think , it's a bit weird to call it the Hedwig death, because, I mean, I care about animals and I have pets, but it isn't really on the same scale as Tonks and Lupin and all those people. Well, I'm sorry. I guess I'm cold-hearted then, that must be it completely. But, you know.
Ben: What about your cat, Jamie? What if your cat died?
Jamie: If my cat died, I don't think I'd leave my room for months. I'd be so upset.
Jamie: That's no joke, but it is just an owl in a book.
Jamie: Ok. I'm alone here, I know, so I'm just going to be quiet.
Mikey: Well, moving on.
Andrew: Ben, any other deaths that you were surprised by or you were happy with? Dobby was probably - sorry, I do have to say, Dobby was probably the saddest death.
Mikey: It was. A tear-jerker, definitely a tear-jerker.
Ben: What about Voldemort? Poor Voldemort.
Andrew: Poor Voldemort. [laughs]
Ben: No, think about it, though. I mean, for seven - for all these years, he has all this, these elaborate plots to kill Harry and then he overlooks one, tiny little thing whereas Harry just always shows up on the spot, throws up an Expelliarmus and lucks out.
Jamie: We keep having this talk and Ben comes out with all these reason why Voldemort should be forgiven, because he isn't really mean, and he just planned all these things, you know, for 13 years. And, you know, for every year he's been planning these things, he's been in hiding, and then Harry, as you say, thwarts him with an Expelliarmus, or with Hermione clutching his hand at the last minute. But then, I always point out that, Ben, he did - he has murdered hundreds of thousands of people, which kind of puts a downer on his good side.
Ben: No, I'm not saying he's good. I'm just saying that he deserves a lot more credit than he's given.
Ben: So, but, okay, in the book, and I think Mikey would agree with me, we got to give it up for Molly Weasley. I mean seriously, give it up for Molly Weasley.
Mikey: I know, seriously. It's like we just had Ginny up here, and it's like Bellatrix throws this curse at Ginny and she's - Molly Weasley, just comes charging, you know the cloak goes flying off and she's like, "GET AWAY FROM MY DAUGHTER, YOU..." witch. It's still a children's podcast, so we replace the 'b' with 'w.'
Andrew: Try to keep it PG.
[Andrew and Mikey laugh]
Andrew: There's some other things we found out. J.K. Rowling did this interview with The Today Show, with what's-her-name. I was going to say Katie Couric, now I'm forgetting the new - Meredith Viera - formerly of The View. Anyway, she said - J.K. Rowling revealed some of the jobs that the trio are now involved in. Harry and Ron...
Mikey: They redefine the Auror Department.
Ben: No, they utterly revolutionize the Auror Department.
Andrew: They utterly revolutionized the department.
Mikey: They're the hotshots. They're the "to go" team.
Andrew: Then - Jamie?
Jamie: I was just going to say, I can't see Ron as an Auror, really.
Andrew: No, me neither. Everyone...
Jamie: Is that just my opinion or is anyone else agreed on that?
Andrew: Yeah, everyone was predicting just Harry.
Jamie: He would be fighting security trolls or something like that, whereas Harry would be the one to be on the front line.
Andrew: Yeah, and then Hermione, pretty high up in the Department of Magical Law Enforcement. So, they're all working in the Ministry now.
Mikey: It's a new Ministry.
Jamie: Yeah, definitely not.
Mikey: Not the old one with corruption and bad stuff.
Andrew: So, I guess we're going to see all this explained in more detail in the epilogue - sorry, the encyclopedia.
Mikey: That's coming out, yeah.
Andrew: Jo also confirmed what happens.
Mikey: Harry Potter 8: The Encyclopedia.
Andrew: She wouldn't give a time frame, but Jo said she would probably take her time on it. She says she has it all laid out because she has all these notes...huh?
Jamie: A few years? 2010? Maybe 2011?
Andrew: Well, I think that's a...
Mikey: Well that way, she can just give it out to us at the theme park, you know? We all just walk in and it's like, "Here's your encyclopedia." It would be kind of fun.
Ben: But what about...
Mikey: Let's go hunt for stuff and find the Horcruxes.
Ben: The real question is, you know, say she waits five years, how many of you would be lined up at a bookstore to get it?
Andrew: Do you think there's going to be a midnight release for the encyclopedia? I guess...
Mikey: That'd be really cool.
Ben: Why not?
Mikey: That would be crazy.
Andrew: I don't know, I just always pictured Book 7 as being the last one.
Jamie: People still call it Book Eight, you know, the one afterwards.
Andrew: I guess so.
Jamie: I don't know, I think so.
Andrew: And then Neville got a job at Hogwarts. He's the Herbology teacher.
Andrew: Professor of Herbology. So, everyone's happy. These are all the predictions that everyone had sort of assumed, at least for Harry and Neville, and J.K. Rowling confirmed it. Also, let's just run through a couple more, quickly. Luna Lovegood, she, hold on, I think that Luna, she said...
Ben: She basically realized that her dad isn't all he seems to be, I don't know, something like that.
Andrew: Rowling calls her a "naturalist." Whatever the Wizarding equivalent of that is.
Jamie: A naturalist?
Mikey: She would travel the world, and, you know, finding different plants...
Jamie: With no shoes on, and just walk around in one of those...
Mikey: Yeah. And she'd come up and be like, "They're called Threstrals."
Mikey: And no - hold on, I'm not done yet - she'll have no shoes on and throw meat to them. And, it works.
Mikey: I'm sorry, I apologize. That was really bad.
Andrew: One thing we also wanted to discuss today was Dumbledore. We wanted to have a little main discussion on Dumbledore.
Andrew: And Jamie...
Jamie: Well, we've been talking about him. We've been driving a long way. Every day we've done sort of, six hour stints, and four hour stints, and three hour stints, and they claim that I should be complaining less than them.
Ben: You should.
Jamie: Because I don't drive, because apparently I can't drive. I can drive on a British driving license, but they don't trust me to drive on the wrong side of the road.
Andrew: No, no, no.
Jamie: Can't do that.
Mikey: One night we'll see headlights coming straight at us, Jamie. Not safe.
Jamie: Mikey, that only happened once.
Ben: Let's get it straight, he's been asleep 90 percent of the time.
Jamie: I sleep like tean minutes, and then Mikey will be like, "Dude, you've slept all day while we've been driving." And, you know, and all this kind of thing.
Mikey: Ten minutes in Jamie time - ten minutes in Jamie time is like five hours.
Mikey: No, really. It's like all day, Jamie. It really is.
Jamie: Well, whatever. It doesn't matter.
Mikey: Speaking of sleeping.
Jamie: What was I talking about now? Dumbledore. So, yeah, we were talking about Dumbledore. We've been talking about Dumbledore a lot because he's a character that's intrigued all of us, really. And we were pointing out that in Book 1, he was sort of a, you know, mentor figure, and he's been a mentor figure. He's also acted as a father figure, sort of, benevolent old man. You know, the kind of stuff that fairytales are made of. And then, in Book 7, we get a complete turnaround and we find out he's had a, you know, a worrying past. He hasn't been brought up like we thought he had to come into such - to be such a perfect man. And we were wondering whether this has changed everyone's perceptions of Dumbledore, and whether they still like him or not at all. Okay, well, that solves that one.
Andrew: Wow, what a quick discussion.
Jamie: Okay, let's move on.
Ben: There are a lot of people who don't, you know, because they look to his past, say, okay, he was friends with Grindelwald. But you have to look at the circumstances in which he grew up, because he was given - he wasn't really given much of a choice, because there were the three muggles that did those horrible, horrendous things to his little sister, and I think the fact that he actually turned his life around despite the fact that those bad things did happen to his family because of muggles, and he's still able to, now, stand up for Muggles and do all these great things, I think is indicative of his true character.
Mikey: Definitely. So, what would you say reallu makes that...
Ben: [as Dumbledore] "It is our choices, Harry, far more than our abilities..."
Mikey: He was waiting for that, if you guys couldn't tell.
Andrew: Every show. While I was reading that back story, I started seeing Dumbledore in a different light. I was like, wow, Dumbledore's not all, you know, all that he's been cracked up to be.
Ben: All that?
Andrew: All that.
Mikey: It made him kind of human, because, you know, you make choices, but not always the good.
Jamie: Yeah, and even more human considering that all this bad stuff has happened and he's talking with Harry and he concentrated on Harry's deal and what Harry had to do, and Harry's problems. So, I had more respect for him after that.
Mikey: It also taught him something early on in life, that he wasn't good with power. That's why he was the headmaster and not Minister of Magic. If you look back at the King's Cross scene at the end of the book, he talks about - Harry's a better man than him because when he was young, he learned that power was not good on him. So, I think it was important that he went through those troubled times as a youth.
Jamie: Yeah, he faltered through slightly.
Ben: It made him all the wiser.
Jamie: Yeah, it did. Anyone have any points about Dumbledore?
Andrew: Yeah, you want to come up and bring up - here - come up.
Mikey: Come on up.
Andrew: It's an audio podcast so we have to hear you.
Mikey: So we need to have you talk in the microphone.
Ben: We might actually record this one. The last two we had a malfunction.
Andrew: Yeah, we've had some bad luck recording our shows. Let's not think about that right now.
Mikey: Say you're name and where you're from, and your question.
Ben: Your social security number, frequent flier number...
Mikey: Credit card number.
Andrew: MySpace URL.
Stephanie: I'm Stephanie. I'm from Tulsa. And, you know, you're talking about Dumbledore, and, you know, how people see him in a different light. I definitely do, just because of the fact that - look what he made Snape do. I mean, I'm a Slytherin, obviously, but [laughs] you know, just the fact that, you know, he made Snape kill him. I mean, that's what made me see Dumbledore in a different light. Snape wasn't the one...
Ben: In what kind of light did that like - how did that alter your perception?
Stephanie: Well, like you said, Dumbledore is - you think of him as he's never done anything wrong. He's never, you know... But then I'm like, you know, it's not Snape coming to Dumbledore with all these ideas, it's Dumbledore telling Snape, you do this, you do this, because we're trying stop Voldemort and...
Mikey: Is he a puppet master? Pulling the strings.
Stephanie: Yes, exactly. Exactly. That's what I think. I might be alone in that.
Ben: Right, but I think...
Mikey: No, no.
Ben: Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Andrew: [laughs] Oh no.
Ben: You've got to give Dumbledore some credit here.
Ben: I think that, I think the fact that - okay, that one moment in time when Snape approaches Dumbledore, of course Snape has already done the Unbreakable Vow, because, you know, either he does that or it's going to be obvious to Narcissa and Bellatrix that, you know, something's up with Snape, that he's not necessarily all with Voldemort's side of things. And, so that one crucial moment in time where Snape approaches Dumbledore when Dumbledore's there with Draco at the top of the tower, if Snape doesn't kill Dumbledore he's going to drop dead. And was proven by Book 7. It's obvious that Snape's position in the Order of the Phoenix was that much more crucial than Dumbledore's. So, and the hero must go it alone, so I think the fact that Dumbledore made Snape kill him...
Jamie: It was a huge sacrifice.
Ben: It was a great sacrifice. And I think if anything, it should make us see Dumbledore in more of a positive light rather than thinking he's some cruel person for making Snape kill him.
Mikey: Okay, I'm not going to argue. Not now.
Jamie: But saying that...
Mikey: In the car, in the car ride.
Ben: That's all we do in the car ride, is constant bickering from the front to the back.
Jamie: About everything you could possibly think of as well. Just, oh.
Mikey: Just throwing chips at each other, like, "No, you're wrong."
Jamie: Yeah. No, you're wrong.
Andrew: And the music's a problem too, but anyway...
Jamie: Yeah, the music.
Andrew: Do we have - someone around here...
Jamie: No, yeah. Sorry. Can I say one thing?
Jamie: I know what you mean, because when I was reading that, The Prince's Tale, you know, Dumbledore just says matter-of-factly, well, you know, if you come over here and do this stuff, and then go and see someone else, oh, and kill me. So, he acts like it isn't a big deal, and then Snape wonders about his soul and what's going to happen to his soul, and Dumbledore doesn't seem to care, but I think he does care, really. So, that's why - I don't know. I don't personally hate him.
Ben: There was one point in the book where I felt, basically when - you know, Harry felt this way too - was when Snape, in the Pensieve scene, where he finds out that Harry is going to have to die at the hands of Voldemort. And at that one point in time he thinks Voldemort - Dumbledore never really cared about my life, you know, he kept all this information from me. And, I don't know, I think it makes sense that Dumbledore didn't tell Harry he was a Horcrux before he died, because, as he said, Harry's not very rational and tends to, you know, charge head on rather than actually thinking things through, which is another reason why Voldemort should've won. But...
Jamie: Can we ask - Andrew, can we just ask a quick question? What would've happened if Dumbledore had told Harry that he was a Horcrux before he died?
Andrew: We had this debate somewhere.
Jamie: Did we?
Andrew: And I think we said - I think it was at Enlightening?
Jamie: Probably in the car, actually.
Andrew: Someone - who?
Audience Member: Enlightening.
Andrew: Enlightening. Thank you, sir. Episode 99. He's a listener. He's a good listener. Yeah, we discussed that. We said that if Harry is a Horcrux, if Dumbledore told Harry that he was a Horcrux, Harry would most likely kill himself to defeat Voldemort.
Jamie: But Harry, even then, understood that after all the Horcruxes were gone, Voldemort would still be a mortal man, but with extraordinary magical power, so it would still take him to kill him, but that would be rash. I'm glad Dumbledore didn't tell him.
Jamie: He'd just try to Expelliarmus it out of him or something like that, something stupid.
Ben: That's all he does, anyways.
Mikey: Expelliarmus is like the magical, you know, spell.
Jamie: It is.
Mikey: Everything. It's like, open doors, Expelliarmus.
Andrew: That, and Alohamora was used once in the book, wasn't it?
Andrew: And it seems like such an easy thing to do. Like, what's the point of locks?
Mikey: Yeah, it's like, the first years can do that.
Andrew: Why even have locks? It's like 7-11's, why do they have locks? They're open 24 hours.
Ben: Raise your hand if you read a book called MuggleNet.com's What Will Happen in Harry Potter Book 7: Who Lives, Who Dies, Who Falls in Love, and How the Adventure Finally Ends. Okay, I just - you can ask these guys, usually, I don't like to boast...
Mikey: Oh, no.
Ben: ...but we called it. Harry's a Horcrux, folks. Just thought I'd get that out there. Thank you.
Mikey: Ben Schoen called it, everybody. He knew Harry was, indeed, a Horcrux.
Andrew: When we see Emerson in Chicago, Emerson was - Emerson fought for the Harry is a Horcrux theory tooth and nail. He deserves a lot of credit, too, when we see him in Chicago. Not to say you don't, either. But, I mean...
Mikey: You know, Emerson Spartz from MuggleNet.com probably deserves some credit, too.
Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]
Jamie: Any other thoughts on Dumbledore?
Andrew: Yeah, right here. We'll take a couple. Yeah, yeah, you in the pink.
Mikey: Here's the microphone.
Shelby: You know how he said Vol - sorry. Dumbledore said - oh, hi. My name is Shelby. I'm 14. Tulsa, Oklahoma.
Mikey: Credit card number?
Shelby: Okay. You know how Dumbledore said that he wouldn't be Minister of Magic because of the power thing? Well, he's Headmaster of Hogwarts. He has influence over thousands of impressionable teenagers and pre-teens. How is that not power?
Ben: That's a good question. But, I think when Dumbledore says power, he's referring to too much power, because at Hogwarts he has power over thousands of teens and preteens, whereas, if he was to be Minister of Magic, he'd have influence over the whole magical community, which obviously is a lot more people.
Jamie: And he can change laws as well, which is something he knows he must not get, he must not do because of his background.
Mikey: He also admitted that he loved teaching, even at an early age, and so, by him taking place as a teacher, overseeing all that, it definitely took away from the draw of power because he was teaching, doing something he loved.
Andrew: Yeah. And there's no doubt Dumbledore loved being Headmaster of Hogwarts. So...let's see, anyone else?
Andrew: One more. There was someone else who had their hand raised originally. Are they - yeah. Go ahead, come on up. Come on up. Sure. Then you next.
Mikey: Why don't you make your way up right now so you can make your way through.
Andrew: Yes. Be prepared, here.
Ben: On deck.
Teddy: My name's Teddy, I'm from Oklahoma City, and...
Andrew: Whoo, Oklahoma City.
Teddy: Thank you. I just wanted to say the thing about, like, how Dumbledore didn't tell Harry that he was a Horcrux before he died. Probably because that would just scare Harry for a year, however long he had to think about it, because when he had the hour he had before he had to go die, he didn't really have to think about it that much, he just thought, that's what I have to do. But if he had more time, then he probably would've thought, "but what about all the people I'm going to miss and all that." So...
Mikey: Maybe Hermione would've talked him out of killing himself or something because she thinks way too much about everything.
Ben: She points out that final scene when Harry knows, when Harry thinks that he's going to have to be the one who dies, the way he approached that was the most mature we have seen him throughout all seven books, because, in that one moment of time, he realized that his is what he had to do, and his own life became second nature to those around him. It was a great moment.
Andrew: Yeah. And then, lastly?
Julie: Hi, my name's Julie. I'm from Edmond, Oklahoma. And, back to if it changed our perspective of Dumbledore, knowing what he was like when he was younger. Hermione and Ron and a bunch of other people kept saying, well, he was young, he was young, and Harry kept saying, well, he was the same age as we are. And I think that's the point, because Harry has his prejudices and Harry also makes mistakes, and I think that Dumbledore turned out to be like Harry in the end. And, you know, growing up and realizing what mattered most and it didn't change Harry's perspective of Dumbledore, and it certainly didn't change mine either.
Andrew: Fair enough.
Ben: I think that has to be, you know, when Dumbledore says choices, I don't think choices alone really shape who you are. I mean, even though I like to do the [impersonates Dumbledore] "choices, Harry" quote a lot.
Ben: I really don't think that - I think that, given any environment, if any of us were born into any certain environment, we'd be the exact same way that Dumbledore was.
Jamie: Yeah, and if you notice, even Harry displays some of the characteristics that Dumbledore is ashamed of. You know, like, in Book 5, in Grimmuald Place, he starts shouting and saying, you know, I've done more than you two together. So, there's a certain degree of arrogance in both of them, which could be because of their background.
Mikey: He has done more than both of them together. So...
Jamie: He has.
Ben: Right, but you still - you don't say things like that.
Jamie: You probably wouldn't say something like that. Well, you might, Mikey, I don't know.
Mikey: I would never say such a thing.
Jamie: It's just a joke.
Mikey: It hurts. Quit being so mean.
Ben: I mean, who - does anybody here feel a little bit of sympathy for Tom Riddle? I mean, look at the circumstances he grew up in. Was it really his fault that he turned out to be who he was?
Mikey: He was never loved. He was never loved. No, I agree. Voldemort was bad, I'm not "Ben Schoen" here, but he was never loved. It's kind of sad.
Ben: But can we blame Voldemort for the way...
Mikey: It's sad.
Andrew: Harry was loved. Not orginally. Not at first, but...
Ben: Can we blame, can we actually blame Voldemort for who he became? Whereas, can we blame Harry for who he became? I mean, when you're born into circumstances outside of your control, could anybody really be at fault for what's happened in their lives?
Andrew: You're going to make me cry, Ben. This is very emotional.
Andrew: I agree, you have a good point.
[Crowd member says something]
Andrew: Yeah. You have to give Harry credit, the listener said.
Ben: But - I don't give Harry credit, though.
Mikey: I like Harry, not Voldemort.
Andrew: You want to move on now to a debate, Ben?
Ben: I would love to.
Andrew: Ben's been itching for a debate because...
Ben: School's out.
Andrew: ...he's out of school now.
Mikey: He wants to go back to school.
Ben: Okay, disregarding the ending of the series, should - huh?
Jamie: Explain the debate first.
Ben: Oh, I don't know. Okay, there's - on one side, it's going to be Jamie and I, and on the other side, it's going to be Andrew and Mikey, and we're going to win, but...
Ben: ...we'll let you decide that, actually.
Andrew: They thought up this debate to begin with. I didn't even read the title.
Ben: Okay, disregarding the end of the series...
Ben: Okay. Should the wizarding world have surrendered Harry Potter for the greater good? You know that part where, "You have an hour, Harry, blah blah blah"?
Jamie: Yeah, and take into account that we don't specifically believe in what we're going to be arguing in, but we're just arguing because that's what we have, because this could get...
Mikey: That's what we like to do, really.
Jamie: Yeah, yeah, we like to argue.
Mikey: In the car rides, that's all we do.
Jamie: I'm not sure which side I believe, but we're going to argue furiously, aren't we, Ben?
Ben: So, Jamie and I are going to say that yes, they should have surrendered him. I think.
Jamie: Okay, yeah.
Ben: You guys are going to say no, they shouldn't. Disregard the end of the series and disregard the fact that - you've got to look at it from the perspective of one of the people in the wizarding community who did not know all of the insider stuff that we do.
Andrew: Inside Hogwarts? Fighting at Hogwarts?
Mikey: Or someone outside?
Ben: Like a Molly Weasley. Give it up for Molly Weasley, everyone!
Andrew: Molly was fighting...
Mikey: Molly would never give up Harry, because he's as good as one of her sons.
Andrew: Molly was fighting at Hogwarts, though, so...
Jamie: Have we started? Sorry.
Ben: No, no.
Andrew: I'm just trying to figure out what's going on.
Mikey: It's an early blow, sorry.
Ben: You don't get it, you don't get it. I'm saying should...
Mikey: Okay, okay.
Ben: Should not, will not, will not, what, did, happen, no, should. Okay?
Andrew: [laughs] Okay.
Ben: You follow?
Andrew: I get it.
Mikey: We're starting.
Ben: So, so who starts?
Mikey: I'll go first.
Ben: Jamie - you two start, you two start.
Mikey: I can go first.
Mikey: I think I got something here.
Mikey: Personally, I don't think the wizarding world should have given up Harry Potter. The reason why is, you can't give into the demands of one sadistic, crazy murderer. You can't.
Mikey: Because if you do, how do you know it's going to end there? If they give up Harry Potter, who are they going to take next? Ginny, Ron, Hermione, everyone else that we cared about in the series.
Mikey: So, I really don't think they would, you know, in any means, it would be smart to give him up, because he's never kept to, you know, any type of, you know, deal.
Ben: Okay, we have a response from Mr. Lawrence here.
Jamie: Moral choices are all well and good, Mikey, but you have to take into account the here and now, what was happening at that time. That one person there, and all these children in Hogwarts. You have to - you know, all these children could die if Voldemort comes in, and I know you can think with hindsight, you know, "Well, I'm so glad we didn't," because he happened to vanquish the Dark Lord, but don't forget that we're reading these books and we know good is going to win over evil. But in terms of being there, good and evil, it doesn't really matter, because you think, "I have 500 lives here and I have one life here." Of course you can think that, you know, this could not be the end of it if Voldemort wins, but you could also think that if Harry doesn't succeed, there's - and if you're standing there, and you think, "We have this Dark Lord who has been so powerful all these years. He's one of the most powerful wizards ever to have lived, and Harry Potter." You have to have one slight concern that he isn't going to win, and his wrath is going to be terrible. Voldemort's wrath is going to be terrible if they didn't give Harry up, and - sorry, yeah, if they give Harry up. Yeah, there'd be a lot of bloodshed. So, I think you have to think the greater good there, and if you hand over Harry Potter, all the children in Hogwarts could survive, and that should bring you through.
Andrew: Most of the children at Hogwarts did survive anyway, but...
Ben: We're not talking about did.
Jamie: We're not talking did, Andrew.
Andrew: Most people were...
Andrew: All right, fair enough. Everyone was behind Harry, though. Once everyone realized that the Ministry was wrong, that the Ministry was lying about Voldemort being back, that's when everyone realized, "Okay, we should fight with Harry because Harry's right and we should defeat Voldemort." Everyone hates Voldemort anyway. You can't say, "Oh, let's give him over to Harry," because then everyone is losing.
Mikey: Everyone who did not join Voldemort as a Death Eater were living in fear. Giving into someone that's a dictator like that, living in fear.
Andrew: Yeah, they wanted to stop Voldemort.
Jamie: It isn't a case of giving up...
Mikey: Will it end by giving up one life? Is that one life, you know?
Ben: We're not talking about the concept of giving up one life and the concept of fear. We're saying...
Mikey: No, you're saying that they're giving up Harry, or not to give up Harry.
Ben: No, no. Did I interrupt you, Mikey?
Mikey: I'm sorry, Ben Schoen, I really am.
[Andrew and crowd laugh]
Mikey: I'm sorry.
Ben: What I'm saying is...
Mikey: Anyway. Okay.
Ben: You're given the choice. Okay, say there - I love using real world analogies. So, say there was a plane that was hijacked, and we knew that Osama Bin Laden was on board and that he was going to crash this plane into the Sears Tower, okay? Do we shoot the plane down and save the people on the ground, or do we say, "You know, we can't give into fear. We can't give into terror..."
Jamie: It's realism, yeah.
Ben: "...and let this plane crash and kill 8,000 people." More than that, even.
Mikey: I think I heard it in the crowd. "What? Really, what?"
Andrew: You can't really compare...
Jamie: No, no, no.
Ben: No, I'm right. I'm absolutely right.
Jamie: But it comes down to realism. Not giving into evil is very, very good if you can stand it, but then you have to think that there are lives at stake. I have to make the decision that saves the most amount of lives and destroys the least amount of lives, and handing Harry at that situation would have saved the most amount of lives because all you can think about is the short term, and in the short term you're going to save all these lives. The long term you can't be sure about, and even if you didn't hand over Harry, the long term could still be bleak, and worse, because you haven't handed over Harry.
Ben: So, what we're saying is that you guys are looking at it from like - you ignored the first part of what I said. Ignoring the end of the series. You guys keep going on about...
Ben: ...how, you know, "Well, they lived anyways, blah blah blah."
Mikey: No, I didn't say that.
Andrew: I didn't say that.
Ben: Well, then go ahead.
Andrew: I was talking to...
Ben: Go ahead, go ahead.
Ben: Humor me.
Mikey: I'm just saying, one life versus one hundred lives. Okay, I personally don't think giving up any life, for any reason, would be a rational decision, especially when you don't know what's going to happen. It's - basically it comes down to your favorite line: "It's your choices you decide to make."
Mikey: And giving up Harry to believe that Voldemort would hold up his end and have no more bloodshed? I just don't think that would make any sense at all for any people in the wizarding world who are already living in fear, who - there's been so much bloodshed, so much, you know, Muggle-born killings. It just, it wouldn't make any sense whatsoever for anyone who was not already a Death Eater to give Harry over.
Andrew: Yeah, they weren't just...
Mikey: I just have one more point. And also, at this point in time, even though Harry - you know, giving over Harry would stop all this, apparently, Harry was considered the Chosen One by everyone at that time. Voldemort wanted him. Why give up your one chance to end something? I think that, right there, would make the biggest - you know, it's like, why give up your lifeline, really?
Andrew: They weren't just fighting for Harry, they were fighting for the wizarding community as a whole.
Mikey: As a whole. Even the kids. Even the kids there...
Andrew: We're running out of time.
Mikey: We're almost out of time, but even the kids in the castle understood what was going on. You know, the little Creeveys wanted to fight. They knew what was going on.
Jamie: And we think...
Mikey: I know, it's sad, but they wanted to fight. They knew what was going on. They stood up...
Mikey: ...to a bad man.
Ben: But knowing that if you do not give up this one person, that absolutely everybody there is going to be...
Jamie: Will die.
Ben: Obliterated and killed, you give up that one person because...
Jamie: You - yeah.
Ben: That is going to give you a chance at life, whereas if you don't give up that one person, you're going to - everybody's going to be killed.
Jamie: And you have to take the majority amount of people. You know, the Creevey brothers wanting to fight is all well and good, but the Creevey brothers are not going to stand any chance against Bellatrix or any of those Death Eaters.
Andrew: Well, would you have predicted Molly Weasley?
Jamie: They will die unnecessarily.
Andrew: Would you have predicted Molly Weasley would stand a chance against Bellatrix?
Jamie: No, I think that's very cool , but apart from that...
Mikey: I think the only way to solve this is to ask the audience.
Jamie: Well, can we finish our point?
Ben: No, actually, you guys got to speak a lot more than we did, so...
Andrew: We got...
Jamie: Let's just finish this point.
Andrew: No, no, no. It was fairly split. You guys - well, okay, anyway, let's take a poll here. How are we going to do this?
Jamie: Well, can we finish our point?
Andrew: Hands, or...
Ben: Wait, so, I mean, you guys just get to cut us off when we're trying - right in the middle of a point?
Andrew: Go ahead, finish. Finish, we're running out of time.
Mikey: Finish your argument, finish your argument. I want have Alex play, but finish your argument.
Jamie: Okay, so in these situations, you have to take into account the most amount of people, and the Creevey brothers, as I said, it's very cool that they want to fight, but they're not going to survive something like this, so Harry Potter, you know, such a brave boy, would understand that all these lives have to be spared. He - all of his decisions are to be made to save lives. He himself allows him to be killed to save the people in the there and then, and you know, I think that you two are going against everything that Harry Potter stands for, and I don't think you can call yourselves fans...
Jamie: To be honest.
Andrew: All right.
Ben: So basically...
Jamie: The door's over there.
Ben: In summary, Jamie and I are looking at this argument through a big picture perspective, whereas Andrew and Mikey are looking at it from a...
Andrew: Ben knows he's going to lose. [laughs]
Ben: ...narrow - through a pipe. So...
Mikey: We're wrong, so you want to make sure you vote for Ben Schoen. Remember that, basically.
Andrew: All right, a show of hands, who agrees with Mikey and I that the wizarding community should have...
Mikey: Kept Harry...
Andrew: Should have kept Harry.
Mikey: And fought, yeah.
Andrew: All right. Oh, jeez. Okay. That looks like a majority amount.
Ben: So you've got to remember, it's not whether you agree with them personally. He didn't phrase that very well.
Andrew: No, they understand.
Ben: It's whether you - no, no. It's not whether you agree with Mikey...
Female Audience Member: Ben lost.
Ben: No, I don't lose. Ben Schoen does not lose! You do not understand. Okay, Ben Schoen doesn't lose.
Mikey: For people listening, someone just said, "Ben lost."
Jamie: Ben, been. How many hands went up just now? 15% of the people in here, maybe? Something like that, yeah.
Andrew: Fine, fine, we'll hear it, then. Who agrees with Mike and I? Make noise.
Mikey: Make noise if you agree with us.
Andrew: Okay. Who agrees - whoever agrees with Ben and Jamie, make noise.
Ben: By the way, that was digitally altered. By the way.
Andrew: All right, we got one guy over here.
Mikey: [laughs] One guy.
Andrew: You're invited to the MuggleCast after party.
Mikey: With Ben.
Andrew: I'm sure Ben and Jamie will be extending an invitation.
Andrew: Anyway, let's just take a couple of quick questions. We're almost out of time, we have two more...
Jamie: Wait, who won?
Mikey: I don't know who won. We'll let people listening decide.
Andrew: Let's take a couple of questions real quick about the Book Seven. Just real quick.
Andrew: Magic number.
Ben: There's no doubt about it.
Andrew: What's your name, where are you from?
Katiry: I'm Katiry and I'm from Miami, Oklahoma. I'm 19. I was just wondering if you guys think it's a big slap in Laura Mallory's face because Harry goes and dies for everyone and then comes back to life kind of like Jesus?
Jamie: Yeah, but she'll try again.
Jamie: She's tried like, five or six times now and she keeps losing. It's like, one of those birds who flies against the glass window and carries on and carries on and carries on.
Mikey: Which is - I feel for it.
Jamie: And she'll keep trying and she'll keep trying, and then perhaps one day she'll read the books, maybe.
Andrew: Good point. All right. Next question.
Kelsey: I'm Kelsey from Stillwater. I wanted to ask if - since the part of Voldemort's soul that was in Harry is now destroyed, do you think that he still can talk to snakes?
Ben: I don't think so. Probably not, since...
Ben: ...the power resided within the Horcrux itself, so probably not.
Andrew: Right here, yeah. You're desperate. Oh, my gosh, you're like holding your breath until you get picked.
Ashley: My name's Ashley.
Ashley: From Cleveland.
Ben: How old are you?
Ashley: 14. Okay, so, house elves can Apparate in or out wherever they want, basically, as they've Appparated around Hogwarts. Why couldn't, in Half-Blood Prince, why couldn't Draco have Apparated with house elves to bring the Death Eaters in?
Ben: She's saying, basically, it would be a lot easier to take a house elf and Apparate in rather than bringing...
Jamie: Perhaps they can't bring people along with them.
Jamie: Or there's something against humans coming into Hogwarts, you know, rather than the method of coming in.
Mikey: Oh, I think I can answer that.
Jamie: I'm not sure. Go on.
Mikey: If he was able to take a house elf, then we would've never saw where the other Horcrux was in that room, and it wouldn't have worked as a story.
[Crowd laughs and applauds]
Andrew: This guy right here, and then one final question. Anderson: I'm Anderson Daniel from Tahlequah. I'm 17. I was wondering if you guys were disappointed that Fawkes didn't show up anywhere in the book.
Andrew: Yeah, we were.
Jamie: Yeah, very.
Andrew: Yeah, we talked about this a few times.
Jamie: In the car mostly, yeah.
Andrew: What was missing? The Veil, Fawkes, you know, it was a disappoint, but - encyclopedia, I hope.
Jamie: Hope she'll explain it more, yeah.
Andrew: Yeah. One last question. This guy right here, doesn't even have his hand raised.
Mikey: Alex Carpenter.
Andrew: Alex Carpenter of The Remus Lupins, round of applause!
Mikey: He's so dreamy.
[Andrew and crowd laugh]
Mikey: A wizard rock heartthrob?
Alex: You guys are dorks.
Alex: You guys all like Harry Potter. You guys are dorks.
Andrew: [in dorky voice] Alex, thanks. Yeah, what's up? Let's talk. [in normal voice] Alex, were you happy with the book?
Alex: Yeah, I was. Well, I mean, sort of.
Alex: There were parts...
Andrew: What bothered you?
Alex: I don't know, my corpse?
Alex: That always gets me. Yeah. Basically when I read that ending, Lupin and Tonks were in there, dead, I was like, "Aw, aw, aw."
Jamie: Alex, do people ask you questions like that? Sort of, what was your reaction to your death? Like, "Yeah, well, it was a bit annoying to me because I died, and then, you know..."
Alex: It was stunning, really. Shocking. I didn't expect it as I thought that I was going to be alive, but I'm dead, so that's good.
Andrew: So, are you going to get a name change, or are you just sticking with it?
Alex: Yeah, I was thinking of changing my name to Harry and the Potters, but I heard it's taken.
Andrew: [laughs] That'd be pretty original.
Alex: Yeah, yeah, maybe.
Andrew: All right, well, Alex, you're going to come up here with your band and start performing music in just a second.
Andrew: Thank you, everyone, for coming out today.
Mikey: Thank you guys very much.
Alex: Thank you all very much.
Mikey: Stick around. Everyone outside, come on in and take a look at The Remus Lupins.
Andrew: Don't forget, there's plenty of merchandise over there.
Ben: Oh, one second, one second, ladies and gentlemen. A few thanks yous first. Thank you to Adam Bromberg for driving us everywhere and running our table over there, he's been great.
Jamie: Thank you, Adam.
Ben: Give him a round of applause.
Mikey: He's got MuggleCast shirts like the one Ben's wearing. It's snazzy.
Ben: By the way, I don't have any luggage with me, so I've just been grabbing t-shirts out of the back.
Andrew: Ben's suitcase is a plastic bag.
Mikey: From Target.
Andrew: Thanks, everyone.
Jamie: Thanks very much.
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