Live From St. Louis

Andrew: And now, here's our show from St. Louis, Missouri. I forgot to record the first couple of minutes where we do the introductions, but you know what happens, so here is where I started recording:

Main Discussion: Snape

Andrew: I guess we want to first talk about, we want to - at each show, we've been sort of holding a main discussion, and yesterday we talked about Dumbledore. Today we want to talk about Snape, because...

[Crowd cheers]

Andrew: Everyone's happy about Snape now, right?

Mikey: Wow.

Andrew: Jamie?

Jamie: Snape's been a very interesting character throughout the books because before Book Seven, really, we thought, he's so mean to Harry, and he's mean to everyone, and now with Book Seven there's all this new evidence that shows that he was an unsung hero. Everyone hated him, but in death, you know, he's become a martyr, and you know, all this stuff. So we're wondering what people thought about Snape now, and if their position of Snape has changed with the release of the seventh book, or have their feelings towards him increased, decreased, anything like that. So, Ben?

Ben: I don't know. I mean, I thought what Snape did was kind of expected from him, I mean, if you can read the writing on the wall, I thought it was quite clear that Snape was working for the Order, and I don't know, I still think Alex Carpenter likes to talk about Snape a lot, and he says, well, okay, he cleared him of one charge. He was conspiring with Dumbledore to kill him, but it doesn't change the fact that he's still a jerk.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: But, he's not. But he's only - he only is to Harry. Well, you know, he is to everyone, but now the reason he's a jerk to Harry has come out, because he sees Lily's eyes in Harry, and he loves Lily, and the silver doe proves that. So...

Mikey: But he's still a jerk.

Jamie: Yeah, but, okay...

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: So...

Andrew: I don't know if he is, though. I think I agree with Jamie on this one. I mean, he was being a jerk to Harry just to build character.

Jamie: I think these two are just heartless in this. You know, he's a jerk, but he's only helped conquer the Dark Lord and probably without his help, Harry would have just been throwing Expelliarmus spells everywhere again, just like he does all the time.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: So, yeah. I think Snape is an unsung hero and if anyone agrees, please raise a point or something like that.

Ben: What's interesting, though, is how, when Snape and Dumbledore are having a conversation and Snape is talking about how the kid's just like his father, he's arrogant, he's conceited, he's all these terrible things, and then Dumbledore brings up the fact that that's just Snape's opinion, because the same teachers tell him completely opposite things about Harry. How he's endearing, how he's charming, how he's a good friend. So, I don't know, I think Snape - maybe I'm starting to agree with you a bit, Jamie, but he's still kind of really mean, though.

Jamie: But Snape is kind of true, he is arrogant like that. You know, I'm not saying that he shouldn't be, but Harry is kind of arrogant, and he's just...

Ben: In what way?

Jamie: Just how - like in Order of the Phoenix, when he was shouting at Ron and Hermione, being like, "I've done more than all of you put together," and, you know?

Ben: Well, is it true? I mean...

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: Well, perhaps a bit, but this conversation's wandering slightly, but back to Snape.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: Snape - okay, I think whatever bad things Snape has done, and they are numerous, as Alex points out, the fact that he was playing a double life and obviously when people called him a coward it really got to him because that's the one thing he wasn't being, a coward. He was, you know, helping Harry, he was helping Dumbledore. He was working on Dumbledore's orders and completely destroying himself by playing this dual role. I don't see how anyone could ever think of him as bad. You should feel ashamed of yourselves if you do, i think, personally.

Mikey: I don't agree with you at all.

Jamie: Well, you should feel ashamed of yourself, Mikey. That's...

Ben: Mikey, justify yourself, then.

Mikey: I can justify myself. You know, I read the book...

Jamie: Mikey, can I just ask you how you sleep at night?

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: Because I think, you know...

Mikey: Usually I close my eyes and fall asleep.

Jamie: Wow. I should try that. Never heard of that before.

Mikey: It works, you know, no light gets in. I - no, I agree. Snape has done a lot, especially at the end of Book 7, you find out in "The Prince's Tale." He's done a lot of great things, and really, that silver doe really kind of brings back - you know, I don't hate him as much. I used to loathe Snape with a passion because he was just so mean to Harry, and Harry was like - come on, it's called Harry Potter. I was all about Harry. He's cool.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: But...

Mikey: But no, he really has been just like, a jerk to Harry through the entire series. Okay, I know it's building character, blah blah blah. He was still mean, though. And really, he's still a greasy git when it comes down to it. He really is, you know.

Jamie: He is a greasy git.

Mikey: He needs to take a shower. He needs to wash his hair.

[Andrew and crowd laugh]

Mikey: No, it's true.

Jamie: But Mikey, that is - being a greasy git, I think, is less of a crime than collaborating with the greatest Dark Lord that's killed thousands and thousands and thousands of people. He probably would get to wash his hair if he were a serial killer. I hope you agree.

Mikey: No, I agree that he's not as bad as I used to think, so I don't loathe him anymore. I still don't like him. He's not my favorite character. He did some bad stuff.

Jamie: I just think we have to understand where he's coming from. He obviously has had this eternal love for Lily...

Andrew: Right.

Jamie: ...that hasn't died down.

Mikey: But he still became a Death Eater.

Andrew: That's one thing we haven't...

Jamie: But, but...

Mikey: Am I wrong there? He still became...

Jamie: No, no.

Mikey: ...a Death Eater.

Ben: Right, but did he still, you know, make a 180 and go for the good side?

Jamie: Yeah.

Mikey: Why did he do that, then? Like, what would have caused him to make a 180?

Ben: Lily's death.

Mikey: Oh, okay. I thought it was his choices.

Ben: Huh? Well, of course it's his choices, but...

Jamie: Didn't someone say that in the books?

[Andrew and Mikey laugh]

Ben: [in Dumbledore voice] "It is our choices, Harry. Far more than our abilities."

Mikey: There is it. Okay. We have to set him up at some point for his Dumbledore voice.

[Crowd applauds]

Mikey: But no, yes, Dumbledore - or, no, Snape did have choices and he changed, but regardless, he still went down that path, he still became a Death Eater, he was still a jerk overall to Harry.

Jamie: But he - he just had so much...

Mikey: He did have some redemption.

Jamie: No, no, no.

Mikey: He did bring himself back.

Jamie: He did, but there was stuff he had to do. He had to weigh up loving Lily against being mean to her son, and continuing the, sort of - perhaps he didn't want to be mean to him, but he did it because, you know, he had to think of the bigger picture. And he had to - his soul, as he says, in one of the chapters in Deathly Hallows when they're talking about Draco killing Dumbledore and Snape is like, "Well, what's going to happen to my soul after I do this thing?" So, he's had people not caring about him right to the end. He finished his life with all the Hogwarts teachers hating him, you know, because they thought he was on the bad side. This is one man who sees the bigger picture completely, and he's completely selfless. And he may need to wash his hair, but...

Ben: The question I have for you, Mikey...

Mikey: Oh, no.

Ben: ...is given the situation Snape was raised in, can you really criticize him for the way he felt towards other people?

Mikey: I don't think I can, but he still made those choices. Harry was raised in not the same situation, but in a very harsh situation, but I don't think his family didn't love him.

Andrew: I don't think...

Ben: Hold on a second. If Harry, at the end of the book, it's obvious since Harry named one of his only kids after Snape, Albus Severus whatever. If Harry has the nerve to forgive Snape, why can't you, Mikey?

[Crowd laughs and applauds]

Ben: That's the real question.

Mikey: I've forgiven him for the fact that he killed Dumbledore, but he's still a jerk throughout the series.

Jamie: And he's got greasy hair, right?

Mikey: Yeah.

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: I think...

Ben: You're spiteful, Mikey.

Andrew: I think Lily is really important here...

Mikey: I'm not going to win at all.

Andrew: No, you're not. I think Lily is really important in this, like Jamie brought up, because Lily - Snape had a love for Lily and therefore Snape wanted to protect Harry after Lily died.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: Snape probably still loved Lily, even after...

Jamie: No, he did.

Mikey: He did, that's why he had the silver doe.

Andrew: Even after Lily died.

Jamie: Silver doe, yeah.

Mikey: Because we know Patronuses can change, so if he still had the silver doe, we know he still...

Jamie: Yeah, but the important thing about the Patronus is that they can't lie, and we've talked about this, we weren't sure the reason why Dumbledore trusted Snape, and then we realized it's because of his silver doe Patronus, because you can't lie with a Patronus. It's very interesting and touching.

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: Yes, it is.

Jamie: Yes, it is.

Audience's Thoughts on Snape

Andrew: Does anyone have any thoughts about this debacle?

Jamie: This character. This amazing character.

Mikey: Anyone have an opinion about Snape that wants to share?

Andrew: You have to come up.

Mikey: You have to come up, though, because you need to be on the microphone.

Andrew: Yeah, you have to come up here.

Mikey: There's one right here.

Andrew: We're doing an audio show, we have to hear you.

Mikey: Please state your name...

Andrew: Oh, oh, sorry.

Ben: Name, serial number - I mean, social security number...

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: Credit card, date of birth, along with your drivers license.

Andrew: And MySpace URL.

Jamie: And bank card details.

Mikey: Yes. Facebook, too.

Comparing Voldemort, Snape and Harry

Brynn: Well, I'm Brinn. And I just thought it was interesting that there was this huge parallel between Voldemort and Snape and Harry. And it was almost as if Snape was in between. Because they all had - they were raised in a way that was not, like, the ideal childhood. And then, there was actually a line towards the end about Hogwarts being, like, all of their homes, where they all felt at home. But it's, you know, another thing about the choices because Voldemort totally went evil, and then Snape sort of came back, and Harry, you know, even though he experienced a lot of the same thing, turned out to be good. So, yeah.

Jamie: I agree completely.

[Crowd claps]

Ben: It's interesting. It's almost like you have three different degrees. You have Harry, who, you know, was raised without parents, chose the path that obviously has been good from the start. You have Voldemort who was raised without parents who chose the path, you know, towards [Darth Vader voice] the Dark Side.

[Crowd and Andrew laugh]

Ben: Then you have Snape, who was, you know, torn in between. So...

Degrees of Salsa

Mikey: So, they're kind of like salsa.

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: Mild, Medium, and Hot.

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Yes, exactly, Mikey.

Mikey: [laughs] I saw that coming right away. I was like, "Oh, I have to use this."

Andrew: How did you get in here with that shirt, by the way?

Jamie: Someone has to explain that. Can someone explain that?

Andrew: What?

Mikey: What?

Jamie: That reference you just made.

Mikey: The salsa. Well...

Jamie: Everyone will know I didn't get it.

Mikey: [laughs] He's British, that's why.

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Medium, cold...

Mikey: Yeah. There's Mild, which is like the lowest end of salsa. And there's Medium, and there's Hot. And there's three different degrees, you know, that they all grew up on. There's three types of salsa, also.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: You know what you should do? That's so good, you should tell Jo that. You should be like, "Your characters are so developed, they reminded me of a sauce that isn't alive."

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Well, I bet that's where she got the idea.

Jamie: Yeah, I bet it was, yeah.

[Andrew laughs]

Ben: She was sitting there with her tortilla chips.

Jamie: She wasn't really sitting on a train in London, she was...

Mikey: She was eating her dinner, tacos and chips...

Ben: Okay, we took it a little far. We took things a little far.

Andrew: How did you get in here with that shirt, by the way? Harry and the Potters?

Mikey: Harry and the Potters? It's the Remus Lupins show. It's Remus Lupin's. [laughs]

Andrew: Oh, Okay. All right, what's your name, phone number, social and all that?

Mikey: Yeah.

Theory on Snape's Motive

Annie: My name's Annie. And I know a lot of people are saying that Snape mainly was mean to Harry because Harry reminded Snape of James. But has anyone thought that since Voldemort could use Legilimency against Harry, that maybe Snape was - He knew that, and so he didn't want to be nice to Harry because of Voldemort would obviously read his mind and see that. And then he'd realize, "Oh, Snape is being nice to my enemy. My worst enemy. Why is he being a friend to him?" And then he'd suspect Snape and Snape would lose his position as a spy for Dumbledore.

Jamie: That is so true, it's unbelievable.

Ben: Well, no. Whoa, hold on, though. You have to realize that Snape began being mean to Harry early on. You know, year one, back when Voldemort was Vapormort. You know, just an apparition.

[Crowd laughs]

Annie: Well, yeah. No, I'm not - yeah.

Ben: That's all he was. So, I mean, it was different then. In Book 5, once Voldemort actually has a body, then he has to be mean to Harry. But prior to that, he made the choice to mean because of Harry's dad.

Annie: Right. And I'm not ruling out the possibility that he still reminded him of James. That was one of the reasons why he was mean to him, I thought. But the other reason being Legilimency. So, those were my thoughts.

Jamie: That's a good point. Very good point. Anyone else?

[Crowd applauds]

Andrew: Here, we'll let this girl go first.

Snape Died in Vain

Nippin: Hi, I'm Nippin from Othalin, Illinois. Right across the river.

[Some crowd members "wooo"]

Nippin: [laughs] And my point was just that, I know a lot of us wanted to see Snape, you know, do something really big and heroic at the end. You know, in that final battle, sacrifice himself for Harry and show everyone. Like, redeem himself in front of everyone. And we didn't see that. He kind of died in vain, it felt like.

Jamie: Exactly.

Nippin: So, I was disappointed in that.

Jamie: And also, he died being an enemy of Hogwarts. You know, the place that he'd been the entire time. All these teachers didn't like him. You know, there should be a memorial set up to him in Hogwarts, but instead they're going to think he's an enemy forevermore.

Ben: Well, no they won't. I'm sure Harry managed to clear it up.

Mikey: Wait, wait, wait...

Ben: But it's also interesting to point out that it's just sheer luck that we found out the truth about Snape.

Jamie: Yeah, but...

Ben: That Harry just happened - I mean, in all these books, everything, Harry just happened to be in the right place at the right time.

[Andrew laughs]

Ben: He just happens to go to the Shrieking Shack right as Voldemort is setting the snake on Snape. But, I mean - yeah, it was good.

Mikey: Are you saying that Snape was, you know, as great a wizard as Dumbledore?

Jamie: Well, no. I think Snape - I've always maintained that there's like three different hierarchies of wizard and witch. You have Voldemort and Dumbledore right at the top. And this is shown in Book 7, really, when the teachers are talking about how they can keep Voldemort out of Hogwarts. And they say, "Anything we do is not going to work for long. You know, this person can duel all of us. Everyone here, and beat us all. Especially with Dumbledore gone." And then under there you have Snape. And I can't think of another person, except perhaps Bellatrix, who has the same magical power as Snape. Voldemort obviously seriously respected him, even when he tried to kill him. Or did kill him.

Ben: Well it's interesting you point out the hierarchy. Because at the end there you see Bellatrix dueling three of the students at Hogwarts, at one time. And one of them was Hermione. So, you know she's for real. You know what I mean?

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: Who? Who?

Ben: Hermione. It isn't like - Hermione, there's no joking about her.

Jamie: There is, but no where near as...

Ben: But you know who steps in. Molly Weasley. Give it up for Molly Weasley!

[Crowd cheers]

Andrew: That was the surprise of the book. [laughs] That was definitely one of the biggest surprises of the book. Who would have thought Molly Weasley would have ended up killing Bellatrix?

Jamie: Yeah, but more surprising than that was what she called Bellatrix when she...

[Crowd laughs]

Andrew: I know!

Mikey: Get away from daughter...

Ben: A witch?

[Crowd cheers]

Mikey: Questions?

Snape: Good or Evil Doesn't Matter

Dakota: I'm just wondering - I'm Dakota Sellerman from Kingsport, Tennessee. I'm wondering why everyone has to think Snape's good or evil. Why do we have to choose a side? I mean, sure he's a slimey git. But in the grand scheme of things he helps Harry a lot. I mean, without Snape, Harry'd probably be dead.

Jamie: He would be dead. Completely.

Dakota: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: This is the exact point, I think, Jamie was trying to make.

Jamie: Yeah, but...

[Crowd applauds]

Mikey: He's still mean.

Jamie: I don't know. I just think he's up there with Dumbledore in terms of who we respect from the books with everyone else.

Ben: Right. But, Mikey, wouldn't you agree that in times of crisis someone will show their true colors? And the fact that Snape at that - you know after all, he was good. He killed Dumbledore despite that he didn't want to...

Mikey: Okay, you're right. I give up my opinion.

Jamie: Yeah!

Mikey: You're right. Snape was a great guy. I'm going to change Houses from Gryffindor to Slytherin now.

Jamie: Yeah!

Mikey: Completely Slytherin all the way! No, not at all.

Ben: No, I'm not asking you to do that. I'm asking you to just have some respect for the man.

Mikey: I do. I do. And he did a great job, you know, protecting. The silver doe got them the sword of Gryffindor. You know he did a lot. Okay? But, again, he was still mean.

Jamie: We should take a minute of silence for Snape. Out of respect.

Andrew: It's too long. We don't have time for that.

Mikey: Nobody wants to sit in silence for a minute.

Snape is "No Hero"

Audience Member: All right, you shouldn't give up. Because, even though I love Snape, I am up here to defend you. [laughs]

Mikey: Thank you. Thank you.

Audience Member: Because on the Today Show interview, Jo did say, "He is no hero," in reference to Snape.

Andrew: Really?

Audience Member: Yeah. She said that, which actually surprised me.

Jamie: She's wrong.

Audience Member: Oh, yes. I know. She's obviously wrong, since she wrote the books.

Jamie: Yes, she is.

Audience Member: But she doesn't know everything.

Mikey: You know, she did compare her characters to salsa. We know that now.

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: So, she might be wrong. Even though I'm hurting myself in this argument.

Andrew: Did she say anything else about Snape? Like...

Audience Member: Yeah, she...

Andrew: Said he was a what?

Audience Member: Someone else here has seen the interview? [laughs] Yeah, but...

Andrew: Sorry, said he was a what? I couldn't...

Audience Member: A bully.

Andrew: A bully. OKay.

Audience Member: She pointed out...

Andrew: Okay. That's what he is.

Mikey: Really! Come on.

Audience Member: He was a greasy git. And then someone actually asked - One of the children there - they were allowed to ask questions - and one person asked, if Snape did not love Lily, would he have saved Harry? And Jo said no, he would not have saved Harry.

Andrew: Mmmm, iinteresting.

Mikey: You know, I think this goes back to the first book when Fred and George tell Harry, "Don't worry. That's Professor Snape. He hates everyone." He's not just a jerk to Harry, he's a jerk to everyone.

Andrew: But this is what we were saying. Lily played a big role in Snape's decision to save Harry. So, I mean that's part of the argument.

Mikey: So, he's redeemed for one thing. Not the thousands of things he's done. He's been redeemed for one thing. Not killing Harry.

Ben: Okay, okay. But shouldn't you be sympathetic of his situation, considering the way he grew up? I mean, wouldn't we all be the same person had we been raised that way?

Mikey: Well, if that's the case, then I should be sympathetic for Voldemort who killed thousands and thousands of wizards.

Ben: You should. Why shouldn't you?

Mikey: You're right, I should cry for all these people.

Jamie: We've been arguing at every single Podcast, whether Voldemort's good or not. And Ben maintains that you have to have a degree of respect for him and a degree of sympathy towards him, considering the way he's been brought up. The stuff he feels. You know, you'd feel sorry for a man who can't feel the way a normal human can.

Mikey: Well, Dumbledore says...

Jamie: Then we point out that he killed millions of people.

Mikey: Yeah, thousands of people. But Dumbledore even says to pity Voldemort. He says, "ask him for remorse." You know, to pity the living, pity Voldemort. Because we know what Voldemort's going to become when he dies. We've seen his fractured soul. If you remember the King's Cross Station chapter in Deathly Hallows, there's this crying baby that's mangled and deformed.

Jamie: Should we tell our theory?

Mikey and Jamie's Theory

Mikey: Okay. Well, do you want to do it, Jamie? Because, well, we figured it out in the car ride. This is all we do on the car ride. Like, the five, six hours.

Ben: Besides argue.

Mikey: We just argue with each other about Harry Potter. I kid you not.

Jamie: And then it spills over, because we've been talking about Harry Potter.

Andrew: And what station on Sirius to listen to.

Jamie: Yeah.

Mikey: Oh, yeah.

Jamie: We argue over everything.

Ben: Sirius. [laughs]

Mikey: Sirius Radio. [laughs]

Andrew: Sirius Radio.

Mikey: You know we listen to Sirius Radio.

Ben: We just tune into PotterWatch. And, you know...

Mikey: PotterWatch.

Ben: As we're going down the highway.

Andrew: We listen to Howard.

Mikey: Yeah, no.

Andrew: Stern? Okay. Just kidding.

Mikey: See, we listen to Sirius Radio. And then we come to libraries and listen to Remus rock 'n roll.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

[Crowd applauds]

Ben: Okay, so your theory?

Jamie: Okay, the theory is, when Harry comes to King's Cross Station. And then, right at the end when Dumbledore says this is basically in your mind, we think it is in his mind. And that relates to the whole Horcrux thing. And that baby is the part of Voldemort's soul that has latched itself onto Harry. And that baby is going to die. As Dumbledore says, that is the end. Because Harry has also died. Allegedly, that soul cannot - and I'm losing myself here. That soul cannot go back to where Harry has just come from because it's evil and maimed and deformed. And the symbolism, the pure baby is seen as a pure piece of unviolated soul. But because it's deformed and angry and crying, it's a piece of soul that's been violated. Now, Harry tries to help it because that's in his nature. But Dumbledore's there to say, "You cannot help this thing. Now it's up to you. You can either join it and get on the train and go to the netherworld or you can go back to where you've come from and save the day."

Mikey: Yes, like he does. Because that's Harry's job.

Jamie: Well, Okay. He has help to save the day, doesn't he, Ben? Should we get into this? About Hermione always helping him and giving him the helping hand?

Ben: Yeah. Okay, without Hermione, Harry would be absolutely hosed. I mean...

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Seriously. She's the one who figures everything out. He doesn't...

[Crowd applauds]

Jamie: He always wakes up, you know, after fainting, and Hermione's there, breathless, saying, "That was a close call, Harry, wasn't it?"

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Yeah. That's like all of Book 7. Besides that, they were just camping out. Going from place to place. That was really kind of weird, I thought.

Mikey: Back to the Snape discussion. Let's go ahead. We have those people waiting.

Comparing Voldemort, Snape and Harry to The Three Brothers

Elise: My name's Elise. And this kind of goes back to the Voldemort-Snape-Harry parallel. It's just something that occurred to me. With the three brothers, with the Deathly Hallows, how Voldemort's almost like the one with the wand. He wants the power. And Harry's, you know, Dumbledore even says he's the Master of Death. And then Snape would be the one with the Resurrection Stone. And I was kind of trying to draw a connection there. It almost seems like with Snape, we're always seeing in the memories. And he's so caught up in the past. And how the Resurrection Stone, it can't actually bring people back. But you just see like their ghost or their imprints. I don't know, it was just kind of an interesting parallel, I thought.

Jamie: That's extremely good, because he'd want that over everything so he could bring Lily back.

Elise: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: Yeah.

Andrew: Good point.

Jamie: Very good.

[Crowd applauds]

Robbie Fischer's Two Cents

Robbie: Sorry to take time away from the younger fans here. My name's Robbie Fischer and I'm from St. Louis. I'm from the Book Trolley.

Ben: From MuggleNet! Give him a round of applause!

[Crowd applauds]

Andrew: All right! Yeah! Good stuff.

Robbie: I'm partly up here just to rub shoulders with some famous people.

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: Jamie Lawrence, everybody. Famous.

Robbie: But I do have a comment about Snape. I think he's not a good person. I think he's pretty much a vile, loathsome, mean-spirited person.

[Crowd laughs]

Robbie: But he's a sad and tragic one, as well. Because of his love for Lily and that he couldn't save her - he tried and it didn't work - He doesn't like Harry. He never likes Harry and I think he actually dislikes him more than the average student. But he stills stick up for him because he is Lily's little baby. And he's all that's left of Lily. And I think one of the most poignant moments in the whole series are Snape's dying words, "Look at me."

[Crowd applauds]

Jamie: I don't even know what to say to that.

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Robbie Fischer, everybody.

[Crowd applauds]

Ben: In case you don't know, he runs the Book Trolley, which is a section on MuggleNet where you have various book reviews for - particularly now it's going to become more relevant than ever, since Harry Potter's done, we're going to be looking for other things to read. So, check out the Book Trolley.

Andrew: MuggleNet.com/BookTrolley. All one word. Yay!

Jamie: Mikey, how can you be angry at someone whose dying wish is for the son of the person he loved to look at him just so he can get a glimpse into the eyes of the woman that he once loved?

Ben: One last glimpse in the eyes. Yeah, wow!

Mikey: He was still a jerk.

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: I'm not even going to defend it anymore. He was. That's it.

Jamie: He was. That's true.

Mikey: Yep.

Andrew: Oooo. Thunder.

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: It's the ghost of Severus Snape.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: He's coming back to haunt Mikey.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: Mikey, you are in some serious trouble tonight.

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: Oh no.

Andrew: Ben, you want to...

Mikey: We have a few more people, Ben.

Ben: Oh. Sorry.

Andrew: We'll take these last three and then we'll switch up the topic here. Discussion.

Headmaster's Office

Cassidy: Hi, I'm Cassidy. And I just wanted to say, you know, I realized really early on into the seventh book that Snape was good, just because of the fact that he was able to get into the Headmaster's office. Because if he would have...

Andrew: As in becoming Headmaster?

Cassidy: Because just because Voldemort says he's Headmaster, doesn't necessarily mean the school is going to accept him as Headmaster.

Andrew: Oh, right.

Cassidy: Unless the fact that, you know, he was actually there to do the school some good. Because, I mean, look Umbridge wasn't able to get into the office.

Andrew: Oh, that's a good point. Yeah.

[Crowd applauds]

Cassidy: You know, the Ministry said, "Hey, you're Headmaster now," but the school didn't accept her. You know?

Andrew: Yeah.

Cassidy: But the school accepted Snape as Headmaster, so he had to be good, you know, at some point in him because of the fact that, you know, the school accepted him as Headmaster. It accepted the fact that he was there to help students learn and everything. Even though he didn't like Gryffindors too much.

Andrew: Yeah.

Cassidy: You know, just based on the fact that, you know, he just thinks they're all kind of too brave and too out there and everything. But, you know.

Andrew: I wonder if Dumbledore had any idea that Snape would become Headmaster?

Ben: Well, Okay, I hate to dash your point here, but...

[Crowd laughs]

Ben: Sorry, but Okay. Recently in the Today Show interview Jo said that when Voldemort died, the curse that was put upon the school on the Defense Against the Dark Arts position was lifted. So, if Dumbledore put any type of magic on his office in order to prevent someone who did not have good intentions for the school from entering the office, when he died those spells would have been lifted, allowing anybody to enter his office. So...

Jamie: I don't know if that's true, though. Because he would have made sure that all the enchantments...

Andrew: It's a valid argument.

Jamie: No, no, it isn't. Because he would have made sure that all the enchantments that he put on the castle to protect it would have existed after his death.

Andrew: Yeah.

Ben: Well, no, no, no, no.

Jamie: I don't think Dumbledore, who is the master of planning and making things, you know, flow and all that kind of thing, would never, ever leave his castle, his home, basically, the things that he's protecting for all these years...

Ben: Right, but J.K. Rowling said that when the person dies, the enchantment dies with them.

Jamie: But, she didn't particularly say with Dumbledore and Hogwarts. She meamt Voldemort and when he died. I can honestly...

Ben: No, no. She did reference other examples of it, too. So, I don't know. I think it makes sense, what I said.

Jamie: Well.

Andrew: Mmmm.

Jamie: We'll have to disagree.

Mikey: Do you think Snape got a portrait on the wall?

Audience Member: Yes.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: Really?

Mikey: Can you imagine him and Dumbledore just hanging out for all eternity, talking?

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: [imitating Dumbledore] Severus! Wow!

Jamie: They play, like, "What If's" so many times. "What happens if something had gone wrong on that tower and you hadn't killed me, Severus?" And he's like, "Dumbledore, let's not get into this again."

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: [imitating Dumbledore] Sherbet lemon?

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

Mikey: [Dumbledore imitation] Candy, Severus?

Lily-Snape Plotline

Miriam: Hi, my name is Miriam. And I just want to say I really liked the way the Lily-Snape plotline played out. I thought that it was really in character and that his love for her was genuine, but it was both obsessive and possessive, from beginning to end. And I liked the fact that it was there because, well I'm a little older than many of the Potter fans. And I'm just slightly younger than Snape was when he died. And I have to admit part of me was reading through some of the book going, "Okay, you were bullied as a kid. You're teaching one of your tormentor's children. But, come on, it's been half a lifetime. Can you move on a little, Snape?" There was just this drama queen aura about him, I don't know.

[Crowd laughs]

Miriam: But that explains it. And I'm glad she added that.

[Crowd applauds]

Ben: The point I would like to make is the only time we see James in the books, like through the Pensieve scenes and all those things, is when he's being a jerk. Now, are women just attracted to arrogance? Is that, I mean...

Andrew: Lily was. [laughs]

Ben: Like, why? What would be so attractive about James, you know?

Andrew: Were any women here attracted to James?

[Some applause and laughter from the crowd]

Audience Member: Well, she says later, though, that in his sixth and seventh year he is way less arrogant and becomes - because we only see up into his fifth year. We never the time when they actually fall in love and that she's attracted to him. Because she doesn't like him, either, in any of the scenes that we see.

Andrew: Oh, that's true. Yeah.

Mikey: Maybe James got the book, How to Charm a Witch.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: Yeah, he probably did.

Alice: I'm Alice. I'm from Springfield, Illinois.

[Crowd members cheer]

Mikey: Yeah!

Andrew: Are you ready for the Simpsons premiere?

Alice: No. No, that's in Vermont.

Andrew: Is there a Kwiki-Mart there? Did they redo a 7 Eleven into a Kwik-Mart?

Alice: No.

Mikey: We almost stopped there last night.

Alice: You should have!

Andrew: We almost stopped there to see the Kwiki-Mart.

Jamie: I love how proud everyone here is of where they come from. Whenever, like, you say you're from a place a cheer goes up.

Andrew: Springfield!

Jamie: If it's England, and I say, "Hi, I'm Jamie. I'm from London," we'll just have a conversation about how bad it is.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: "Oh, you're from London are you? Sorry, me too." You know.

[Everyone laughs]

Alice: I work at the Barnes and Noble there. And so we had the, you know, party...

Jamie: What? In London? That's quite a trip every day.

Alice: Yeah. [laughs] No, in Springfield. So...

Jamie: Oh.

Alice: Yeah, we had a kick - kick-butt Harry Potter party. [laughs]

Andrew: Do you put all the MuggleNet books in the front of the store?

Alice: They were for awhile. I was the one that was pretty much pushing them. Anytime - there was another one that was like a green...

[Shouting from the crowd]

Alice: Hmmm?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Oh, she'll call you after the show. She's famous.

Lily's Eyes and James' Appearance

Alice: [laughs] But, anyway. I don't know if this is really - Everyone's probably noticed this and stuff. But I actually just thought of it tonight. Do you think the reason why Snape really didn't like Harry was because he had Lily's eyes, and he loved Lily. But he also very much resembled James. And do you think it just aggravated him a little more, because of that?

Mikey: Like a constant reminder that it was James that got Lily and not Snape, you know?

Alice: Yeah.

Andrew: It also could be annoying him that he can see Lily through Harry.

Alice: Yeah, and through James, too. Because he's supposed to look so much like James.

Andrew: Yeah. Through both, basically.

Alice: Yeah. So...

Andrew: I guess, yeah. It's always a constant reminder.

Jamie: True point. True point.

Alice: Yeah. That's all. Thanks.

Andrew: Yeah. Good point. Good point.

Mikey: Last one and then we'll - Last two and then we're going to move on.

Andrew: Final two.

Mikey: Final two and then we're going to move on.

Andrew: And there's going to be plenty of room for other questions.

Edwina: Hi, I'm Edwina.

Andrew: From where? From where? We need...

Edwina: Oh, I'm from right here.

[Crowd cheers]

Mikey: Right here, from the library, everybody. From the library.

Snape's Triumph Over Voldemort

Edwina: Yes, I do live in this library. No, I'm joking. [laughs] Well, anyway, I just had this interesting point to make back to your whole hierarchy thing. About how you thought Dumbledore and Voldemort were on the top. Well, in the Half Blood Prince you know how Bellatrix and Narcissa come to Snape. And Bellatrix asks Snape all these questions. "How do you know you're really with us?" And Snape goes, "Don't you think the Dark Lord asked me these questions himself?" And that kind of cools off Bellatrix. And she's just kind of like, "Well, gee. Voldemort believes you." So I kind of think that that was Snape's triumph over Voldemort. That he managed to hoodwink Voldemort into believing that Snape was really evil. And I just kind of think that sort of proves something about Snape.

Jamie: I agree completely.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a great point.

[Crowd applauds]

Jamie: No one can hoodwink Voldemort. And if Snape can, then he's got to be pretty powerful.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: Oh. What's up, dude?

[Andrew laughs]

Why Snape Joined the Dark Side

Alex: I'm Alex. I'm from Birmingham.

Andrew: Woo! Birmingham!

Mikey: Another Alex.

Alex: And I think Snape joined the Dark Side because he wanted to be a spy for Dumbledore and protect Harry.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: Yeah.

[Crowd applauds]

Andrew: The basics. The basics, I love it.

Jamie: Me too. Me too.

Andrew: Very good point, Alex. All right, now we want to talk about...

Tangent: Jamie's Challenge

Jamie: Should we do our debate first, since it links right in?

Andrew: Yes, sure

Mikey: Should we?

Andrew: A five minute - a quickie.

Jamie: A quickie, yeah. First of all, I'd like to say, I've a challenge for everyone out there. I would love to see Dumbledore and Snape arguing it out as portraits in the Head Office. So, if anyone can do that, I want to see it on YouTube in two weeks, Okay?

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: Two weeks is the thing, because I just want to see them arguing, being, "Cut your beard, Dumbledore." "I'll cut my beard if you wash your hair, Severus." Okay.

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: "Well, I'll wash my hair. You're a bad Headmaster." "Me?"

Mikey: "You killed me!"

Jamie: Yeah, "you killed me." "Don't bring that up again."

[Crowd laughs]

Mikey: "You told me to."

Jamie: Yeah. Debate?

[Andrew laughs]

Mikey: We can go on all day.

Jamie: Sorry?

[Crowd member says something]

Andrew: Actually, well, we got the...

Jamie: I don't know.

Andrew: ...one voice.

Jamie: Yeah, you can be...

Mikey: You can be Dumbledore, Ben.

Ben: [imitating Dumbledore] "It's our choices, Harry."

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: He's going to have to say more than that, though. [laughs]

Jamie: Yeah, yeah...

Ben: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

Jamie: I'll be like, "I'm Snape, not Harry."

[Crowd laughs]

Jamie: And then you just keep saying it.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: This is a winner, Ben, we should get on this right away.

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