Muggle Mail: Elphias Doge

Matt: John, 15, from Oshawa, Ontario- what am I supposed to say?

Andrew: John, 15, from Oshawa, Ontario writes...

[Matt laughs]

Matt: Oh, okay. Sorry. John, 15, of Oshawa, Ontario writes:

"During the Chapter-by-Chapter segment you discussed (page 21, U.K./Canadian, page 15, American?) Elphias Doge's article. When you discussed 'our mutual attraction was undoubtedly due to the fact that we both felt ourselves to be outsiders,' I noticed that no one mentioned that the attraction could have been to the school, and not each other. Everyone seemed to go straight to the relationship thing because Dumbledore is gay, which I'm fine with, he is, before any assumptions come into play. Anyway, I just wanted to know what you guys thought about my point of view. Keep on the great casting."

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: I think Matt should just start reading email now because he adds character to it.

[Matt laughs]

Matt: I started trailing on...

[Andrew laughs]

Andrew: I know.

Matt: Because my computer started dimming for a second.

Andrew: Oh.

Matt: I got a little disoriented.

Andrew: And you were like, "it could have been to the school and not each other."

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, that's a good point. That's a good point. I think that definitely could have been true.

Micah: I think we did discuss other things, didn't we? I mean, it was kind of overridden by the other mutual attraction that we spoke about, but...

Andrew: By the way, I'm sorry about being immature last week. That was inappropriate of me.

Micah: That's okay.

Matt: Yeah, that was pretty - that really hurt my feelings, Andrew.

Andrew: I don't do it again. No, I hurt some listeners' feelings. I feel bad now.

Matt: Awww.

Andrew: I need to grow up.

Micah: Because I think...

Andrew: Because I'm doing a Harry Potter show.

Micah: Yeah, really...

Andrew: Why should I be fun?

Micah: Come on. Last week, I remember Laura talking about how Dodge had Dragon Pox and so I thought mutual attraction had more to do with the fact that he was an outsider because he was diseased, at least in the beginning, and then Dumbledore was sort of his own person and probably didn't fit in much with anybody. So, I think - we did kind of explore that side of it. So, that was all.

Chapter-by-Chapter: The Dursley's Departing

Andrew: Okay. Let's move on to Chapter-by-Chapter now. This week we'll be talking about Chapter 3 in Deathly Hallows. It is The Dursleys Departing. Everyone open up their books.

Micah: Oh, man.

Andrew: And basically what happens in this chapter, to summarize real quick - Harry leaves the Dursleys' house and the Dursleys feel a little emotional about leaving Harry. I mean, this is a big - this is another one of those - the big endings and...

Matt: This is one of the highly - highest anticipated chapters of the series.

Andrew: You think so?

Matt: Well, up until Book 7 - I mean, when everyone was waiting for Book 7 to come out. I think so.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Matt: Everyone wanting to see what Aunt Petunia would do...

Andrew: Yeah. That's true.

Micah: Yeah. I'll agree with that.

Andrew: There was still a big question about Aunt Petunia.

Micah: And it couldn't be a bigger let down.

Andrew: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, we didn't find out, though. But J.K. Rowling...

Matt: That happened later in the book.

Andrew: Actually, wait, now I'm remembering. She did address later in the web chat...

Micah: Right.

Andrew: That she had different plans for Petunia, but then she changed her mind.

Matt: Hmmm.

Andrew: So, anyway, we'll go through our top five moments of the book this week that we do want to discuss.

Harry's Treatment

Micah: The first thing that we can take a look at is, you know, Harry's treatment, in this chapter in particular, is kind of reflective of the way he's treated throughout the entire course of the series, whenever we see the Dursleys. And, you know, the main thing that takes place that kind of shows this is the conversation that he has with Vernon and sort of the exchange that they have with each other.

Andrew: Right. It's very...

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: You get - you get a sense of the - the feeling that Vernon's feeling, that this is the last time. It's a sad goodbye and he's feeling a little emotional.

Micah: You think he is? I don't know.

Andrew: I think so.

Micah: I think he's full of it, to be honest with you.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: I think he wants to get away from him as - as quickly as he possible can.

Andy: I think he's more worried about his - oh, sorry. I was just going to say, I think he's more worried about his and his family's safety, rather than anything else.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: I think he's just really, really, just uneased because he pretty much – he really has no control of the situation pretty much. And he's trying his best to kind of grasp a little firm hand on something but he just – Harry keeps taking him down.

Andrew: Yeah, but I mean, the reason I say that it might have been a little emotional for him is because he did give Harry a handshake and it was sort of – Jo wrote it as if there was a little bit of an awkward moment there.

Micah: Well, didn't he attempt to give him a handshake? I don't think he actually did. I think he extended his hand...

Andrew: Yeah, I am trying to find it.

Matt: No, no. He just brought it – he lifted up his hand as if he was going to shake it...

Andrew: Alright, and then he swung it like a pendulum, I think Jo wrote.

Matt: Sort of like he backed down and swung it like a pendulum.

Andrew: So, I don't know. I sort of just got the sense that he was feeling a little – it's a big change. Obviously, at least Dudley was feeling something, so I would think that Vernon was too if – I don't know.

Matt: Maybe he was just doing – you know, doing the formalities.

Andrew: Yeah, that's true.

Andy: That's possible.

Matt: It's like saying goodbye to a family member even if you don't...

Micah: Yeah. But I thought it was interesting that – he doesn't even seem to believe anything that Harry says and that's consistent, again, throughout the entire series. He's going back and forth in this chapter with Harry about, "Oh, well, do we really have to leave? I don't really think we have to leave. Why can't somebody else protect us? Why can't the ministry step in and..." I think it's just more of his character than anything else that, you know, he's hesitant whenever this topic is brought up as far as the magical world is concerned and he just doesn't seem to put any trust in Harry whatsoever – that this is the right thing to do.

Andrew: But now's the time – this final explanation that Harry gives him where he lays out all he details about how Voldemort will probably come and torture them and try and get information about Harry's whereabouts. It's finally like the nail in the coffin for Vernon to decide, "Okay, time to really get out of here. This is serious."

Andy: It's sort of like the two worlds coming together, really.

Andrew: Yeah. And it runs parallel even to Book 1. I mean, we talked about parallels and how it's all symmetrical, how 1 can relate to 7, 2 to 6, 3 to 4, and 5 sort of parallel somewhere in there. You know, the Dursleys had to leave early on in the Sorcerer's Stone. Now, in the final book, they have to leave again, but this time we don't follow them and we don't see them again, so it's just another example of parallel in the series. Anyway, moving along.

Would Harry Save The Dursleys?

Micah: I guess we could – oh, well, we'll just jump down and then we'll go back. But during the conversation with Vernon, there's a point where, you know, like you said they were talking about Voldemort and possibly him coming and torturing them to get Harry's whereabouts. And there's that moment in between the two of them where Vernon and Harry are wondering the same thing: would Harry actually come back to save the Dursleys if for any reason they got in danger?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And I've always wondered that. And I think it would make a really interesting movie scene because you kind of have that interaction between - and I hope they keep it in because it's kind of important, you know? It's...

Andrew: Is it though? I mean - they always go for things that advance the plot, and that's not really going to advance the plot.

Micah: You don't think so? Well, I mean, you're right. It's not going to do anything to the plot because they don't come back later in the movie. But I don't know, I think it would be kind of interesting to see the interaction between...

Andrew: Yeah, probably. Vernon would probably give him like the big eye and the long stare that we've seen in Chamber of Secrets when he's sort of looking upstairs all angry, trying to wonder what the hell is going on up there with Dobby.

Micah: Right.

Matt: Yeah.

Micah: I think he would though. I mean what do you guys think?

Andrew: Oh, Absolutely. Yeah, yeah - they're family. I mean that's his mother's sister, and his cousin, and especially after this departure. Harry left the Dursleys on an okay note. I mean it wasn't a rude departure like some of the past books have been, so I think that would be even another reason for Harry to come back and be like, "Okay, I got to save these guys. They're my family."

Matt: It's probably just not the closure that everyone was intending for.

Andrew: What do you think everyone was intending?

Matt: That's why.

Matt: Oh, probably like Petunia would fire her arms around Harry and say goodbye or something.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Or tell him something about his mother like she actually did love her sister. Which we kind of figured out at the end of Book 7 when we did the flash back.

Andrew: Right. Yeah, and we'll talk about that at the end of this Top Five because we want to touch on where in this chapter where Petunia wants to say something to Harry, but she leaves. Go ahead.

Hestia and Dedalus

Micah: No, I was just going to continue on talking about when Dedalus Diggle and Hestia Jones show up to escort the Dursleys. It's a lot of the same. It's a lot of what we've seen before. Typical, you know, Dursley fashion of Vernon referring to both of them as "Harry's lot" and that kind of thing. Just him being ignorant. Even though, Andrew, you were talking about before how this was supposed to be more of an emotional chapter. And he's supposed to maybe be showing a little bit more compassion and really there are a lot of things that take place when those two were there that kind of show that in fact, Vernon's the same old person after all.

Andrew: Oh yeah, and I think with tempers running high, especially in Vernon's case, I think Vernon was looking for any excuse to get angry with these two random wizards suddenly coming into his house. Even though he knew they were going to arrive.

Micah: Right, and I think they were kind of taken a little aback when – I forget who it was that said it, but they refer to the Dursleys as "Harry Potter's relatives," as opposed to Harry sort of being a possession of the Dursleys, which he has been for so long. I guess they were almost insulted that they were referred to as something like that. Did you guys get the same thing?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

Vernon's Attempted Handshake

Micah: And we talked about Vernon's attempted handshake, how he kind of went for it but then backed off. I thought that was a little bit messed up.

Matt: That's pretty... But I thought that was pretty much as good as you were going to get from him.

Andrew: Yeah. It's just like – I don't know, you're letting go of your nephew for the last time don't – can't – why not? Why not? And it seemed like nothing was going wrong as of late. Vernon has always been a little angry at him. I just don't understand why...

Matt: Mhm. Maybe when he reached out his hand to start giving him a handshake, and all of the sudden he just started feeling really weird about it and just stopped.

Andrew: Yeah, because there's always that awkward feeling you have with – maybe a family member you've been angry with or a friend and you don't want to be nice to them to give them the wrong impression. [laughs]

[Pause]

Andrew: I speak from experience.

Micah: I was going to just ask that.

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: Not really, actually.

Matt: Or a high-five.

Andrew: Or a high-five.

The Dursleys Don't Appreciate Harry

Micah: I mean, more of the same. Hestia Jones was shocked that the Dursleys don't appreciate who Harry is.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: She seems taken aback by the whole fact. I think we've seen that happen at other points in the course of the series, where wizards who have come to the Dursley home, or even Hagrid in Sorcerer's Stone when he finds out that Harry doesn't know anything about his parents. It's more of the same I guess. And then...

Andrew: That's just an example of how these two wizards are coming in from the wizarding world and just walk into this muggle house, and they have no idea how the Dursleys act towards each other or towards Harry. So, I think there's a reasonable excuse for them flipping out like they did. Just over Petunia when she consoled Dudley and not Harry.

Matt: I thought that was hilarious, I hope they put that in the movie. Because that's going to be a funny scene.

Will This Make The Movie?

Andrew: Yeah, I wonder if this whole scene - maybe at the end of each chapter we should discuss if it's all going to be kept in or not. That could be interesting to talk about too.

Micah: Right.

Matt: I'm afraid this may be cut really short if kept in at all.

Andy: Yeah, I reckon this is cuttable.

Andrew: Oh, I thought...

Matt: Technically it's not really connected to the main plot of the story.

Andrew: Right. They cut it down so much; I mean the whole ending battle is going to have to take up half an hour alone!

Matt: Yeah, I'm afraid this chapter might be cut.

Andrew: Yeah, I mean they got cut from Order of the Phoenix and probably from Half-Blood Prince I don't know, I know they haven't been officially confirmed for being on board with the movie.

Matt: I think they may have put that in Half-Blood Prince just because it's a weird place to start right after that scene in the movie.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.

Andy: If you think back to the fourth movie there's that sort of comical scene with the fireplace and they just got rid of that completely.

Andrew: Right. Oh, I loved that scene. I loved that scene, that scene was so good.

Matt: Mhm. Yeah, it was. Just wait another 80 years for the re-make.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] Yeah, anyway, moving onto point three now?

Dudley's Reaction to Leaving Harry

Micah: Sure, I mean we've basically spent the first half talking about Uncle Vernon and we haven't focused on anybody else. So I guess let's talk about Dudley in this chapter because he's really the one that shows the compassion. Nobody else does, so - I mean what do you guys think? He is the one who ultimately makes the decision to go with the Order. And Harry knows that since it's him that's making the decision, they're going to be safe and they're going to go because whatever Dudley says goes.

Andrew: Right.

Micah: And...

Andrew: You know, first I was really surprised by this scene and now thinking back on it - I think I even talked about it on our initial reaction show - I was just like, "What is this? This came out of nowhere. Why is Dudley suddenly like this?" But now realize in the grand scheme of things and the whole theme of this book, it's just a big,nice good-bye from everyone. I think it was nice that it ended on this note.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: With Dudley finally realizing, finally being the person he should be, finally respecting Harry for who he is. Like we said - the tea cup. Dudley, maybe... Did it say in the book if he left it every morning? Or was it just that morning?

Matt: I don't think so.

Andrew: Maybe it was just that morning because Dudley knew they were coming close to the end. But Dudley's reaction is just amazing! He says, "Where's he going to go? Why isn't he coming with us?" And those were obvious questions, but it made me think that Dudley just wanted to stall, to sort of, maybe not to spend more time with Harry, but maybe try to convince or try to talk him into coming with him or something. Maybe it was just that Dudley felt safer with Harry by their side.

Micah: It's possible.

Matt: Maybe, yeah. I mean you don't really know much about him in Book 6. This could have been two years of soul searching or he may have realized that Harry is pretty good and he is a pretty good guy to be around or something.

Andrew: Yeah. Respect him, Dudley!

Matt: I know! The dude saved his life.

Micah: True.

Andrew: R-E-S-P-E-C-T!

Matt: Or, his soul. Sorry. His soul.

Micah: And plus, he's lived with them for 17 years, or about that. I mean when you live with somebody for that long a period of time - plus they're family, regardless - there's still going to be some sort of connection between the two of them.

Matt: And that's really nice to know that Harry has an actual relative that he's friends with.

Andrew: Yeah, he could be friends with, exactly.

Matt: Or, at least be acquainted with.

Andrew: Right. That's his only relative who is a friend, if you think about it.

Matt: On good terms with.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah. I would consider them friends.

Matt: I don't know. They're family. You can't be friends with your family.

Andrew: Yeah... Well, you can not like your cousins. Or you can like your cousins. Or be good friends with them.

Matt: Let's just say they have a mutual attraction.

Andrew: Okay.

[Andy laughs]

Andrew: That's a good way to put it. In a mature way. In a mature way.

Matt: Oh, yes.

Andrew: Let's see - what else? Oh, Dudley said - this was my favorite line in the chapter. Dudley does not think Harry is "a waste of space." That was the most surprising thing to me when he first said it. I was like, "What? Do you really believe that?" Then Dudley explains. I think Dudley was feeling all of this - is it fair to say that Dudley was feeling emotion in this chapter? Maybe Vernon wasn't but Dudley was?

Andy: I guess so, yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Because Dudley was sort of, like I said - I sort of felt he was stalling or he was trying to get something more out of Harry, but you could tell Dudley was sad to see him go. He wanted Harry to come with. And he's a friend of Harry's and he loves him for saving his life.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: If you absolutely hate someone and then they save your life out of the kindness of their heart, even if they were the only one who knew how to or even if they were just there, you still love the person. You still have to give them a lot of respect.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: And I think at that point in time, Dudley realized that wizards can do cool things – powerful things that can change lives.

Matt: Mhm. Well not only that but - I mean - Dudley and Harry have lived in the same house their entire lives, and probably Dudley was afraid that this will be the last time he'll ever see him.

Andrew: Right. Yeah.

Matt: And he's - I mean - no matter how many times he kicked him or made fun of him or treated him poorly.

Andrew: Well, it's all water under the bridge. Water under the bridge.

Matt: Yeah! And, you know, the fact that he probably will never see him again is probably not something that he likes to face.

Andrew: Right. You would get that feeling with any family member, I think. That's a hard thing to comprehend.

Matt: Yeah. Because he's his cousin.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, any friend or family member, as long as you have some sort of connection to them. And when you realize you're never going to see them? That's sad!

Matt: Well, aren't they the only relatives of their generation in their family? Does Dudley have any other cousins?

Andrew: I don't think, not that we know of. You know, they're not blessed like us. We have the wonders of iChat and Macs! What do they have? They can't video chat with each other.

Matt: They have iChat?

Andrew: No, they don't.

Matt: Oh, they don't? I'm talking about Macs.

Andrew: Macs have iChat but wizards don't have Macs, so they don't have iChat.

Matt: Oh. Yeah, but they have Floo powder!

Andrew: A can't equal B and B can't equal C. A can't equal C.

Matt: They can Apparate.

Andrew: This has been the "Matt and Andrew" show. Woah! Back to you Micah and Andy!

[Micah and Andy laugh]

[Awkward silence]

[Everybody bursts out laughing]

Micah: We don't even know what to say anymore.

Andrew: I know.

Micah: We're just so floored by that discussion.

Andrew: Well it started good. [laughs]

Matt: It was pretty sweet.

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