Muggle Mail: Pettigrew's Hand and the Elder Wand

Andrew: Anyway, let's move on to Muggle Mail now. Who wants to take the first Muggle Mail for today?

Matt: Our first Muggle Mail comes from Wendy Henequin, 40, of Nashville, TN and she writes: "I found your discussion of the sudden suicidal attack of Peter Pettrigrew's hand very interesting. And I agree with the idea that Voldemort had programmed the hand to attack Pettigrew should he prove disloyal. No one, however, mentioned the vital piece of information that confirms this theory. At the end of "Goblet of Fire," when Voldemort creates the hand, he says, 'Pettrigrew, may your loyalty never waver again.'"

Eric: Ooooh....

Matt: Yeah. This is serious stuff!

"Strangely enough, the disloyalty is only slight. Pettigrew's hand only loosens a little, just enough for Harry to jerk away and this action may not be a disloyalty at all. Since Voldemort had specifically ordered that no one must kill Harry but Voldemort himself, Pettigrew must be thinking something disloyal. Also, about Draco Malfoy's wand, someone, not sure who, said that Draco had the Elder Wand, which Harry takes from him, but in the next chapter Ollivander identifies the wand in question as Draco Malfoy's hawthorn, not Elder Wand, and Voldemort takes the Elder Wand from Dumbledore's tomb later. Love the show! Keep it up, and when you finish Chapter-by-Chapter for "Deathly Hallows" go back to Book 1 and start from there. Chapter-by-Chapter's my favorite segment!"

Eric: Okay. We already did Chapter-by-Chapter for Book 1.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Didn't we?

Andrew: Yes, we did!

Micah: Well, I wanted to clarify something I guess that - sorry - Wendy brought up, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong on this, but I was pretty sure that the Elder Wand is not a wand. It's more of a concept, or it's more of an intangible thing so the power itself is transferred from one wand to the other.

Eric: No. No, no, no. I'm pretty sure it's actually a wand.

Andrew: Yeah, because...

Matt: I think it's more of a position...

Andrew: ...Voldemort actually pulls it out of Dumbledore's...

Eric: It's a wand, but it's kind of like an - it's kind of like an unfaithful lover. You can have the wand, but is it really yours?

Micah: Because I was under the impression, okay, that the power of the Elder Wand transferred from Dumbledore to Draco the night that Draco disarmed him on the tower.

Andrew: No.

Eric: We're talking about ownership, though. We're talking about two separate things...

Micah: No, but that's not what we were talking about on the last show.

Matt: No. The Elder Wand does not belong to any specific person.

Micah: Right.

Matt: It's when it's - it's kind of like a link to an all-power or something. It's like a...

Micah: It transfers power...

Jamie: It's like the one ring! Who's in control of it?

Matt: Yeah! Whoever has - it can be transferred whoever wins it.

Jamie: It bends its will to the master.

Matt: Yeah. No - the master holds it, but he doesn't own the power. It's the wand that holds the power.

Jamie: Yeah, but the wand chooses who it works for, though.

Matt: Well, yeah, that also. Well, what Wendy says is Ollivander identifies the wand in question as Draco's wand, not the Elder Wand, but didn't Ollivander say there's really no real way you can tell if it's an Elder Wand or not?

Micah: See, here's my thing, though. If you go back to when Voldemort kills Snape, he kills Snape because he thinks that Snape is in possession of the Elder Wand.

Jamie: No. He thinks he's in possession of its allegiance. He thinks he...

Matt: Yeah, exactly!

Micah: Yeah, right. Sorry. That's what I meant.

Eric: This is how a wand and a wizard connect. An initial attraction - this is according to Ollivander, okay? There's an initial attraction and then a mutual quest for experience - the wand learning from the wizard and the wizard from the wand. It isn't necessary to kill the previous owner, Harry checked, for a wand to change allegiance, but Ollivander suspects that the desire for the Elder Wand naturally causes its former owners to be killed in the process. So, once again, I mean, it's not that you have to kill an owner to win the wand's allegiance. That's typically what kind of happens, but the wand's allegiance and actually having the wand in your position are two completely different things.

Micah: Okay. Yeah. And I think that that's where the confusion came in, because last show I was talking and I should have used the word "allegiance." You're right, Jamie. The allegiance was with Harry in the end. That's why when he disarms...

Eric: It was with Draco.

Micah: Well, no. It goes from Dumbledore to Draco to Harry, and that's what happened in this past chapter that we discussed. At Malfoy Manor, when Harry gets that wand in his possession, or disarms Draco and gets his wand, that's - he's now in possession of the Elder Wand's allegiance, correct?

Eric: No, no, no, of Draco's wand.

Micah: Right, who took the allegiance from Dumbledore the night he disarmed him on the tower.

Matt: Yes.

Eric: Right, but isn't - isn't - right, exactly, but by the end of the book when Harry and Voldemort are dueling on the table in the Great Hall, isn't the Elder Wand still Draco Malfoy's servant?

Matt: No.

Eric: Isn't it still alleged to Draco Malfoy?

Matt: It is not.

Andrew: No.

Matt: Because the wand - the wand is now...

Micah: The wand's in Harry's possession.

Matt: Yeah. The wand succumbed to Harry. The wand chose Harry as its master.

Eric: Okay, well it's still flawed, and we'll talk about that in Chapter-by-Chapter, but I feel that that is a little bit flawed because, well, we'll explain, but I think that it's still flawed.

Muggle Mail: Voldemort's Name

Andrew: Next e-mail from Daniel, 16, of Scotland:

"I was just listening to Episode 139 where you briefly discuss the taboo on Voldemort's name. I believe that this taboo was already in use before the Ministry was taken over in the Deathly Hallows. The Ministry itself. Number 1: the Ministry itself could've been using the taboo previously, not to locate opposition to Voldemort, such as the Order of the Phoenix, but to uncover possible Death Eaters and allies of Voldemort that would be using his name for a more sinister purpose. Number 2: maybe the Ministry encouraged people to say "You-Know-Who" or "He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named" rather than "Voldemort" in order to find people abusing the taboo, and not just because people were afraid just to say his name. Number 3: I think that if it was an idea created by the Ministry it is extremely ironic that Voldemort uses it more effectively when he's in control of the Ministry if they were using it against him. I may be talking total skeptical crap but I just wanted to hear what you guys thought about this theory. It might goes on the verge of saying what I was thinking, but I don't think that it was mentioned, that it may well have been an idea created by the Ministry in order to keep tabs on Death Eaters and not just used by Voldemort to track down his enemies in Book 7." I think that's a good idea.

Micah: I disagree.

Matt: I disagree.

Andrew: Oh. Jamie?

Jamie: What I was going to say, his first point - I think if Death Eaters and Voldemort's allies use his name, especially in front of him, they're going to get killed by him for disrespecting him. And if they use it away from him, I don't think they'd do that because they're probably more scared of him then everyone else is because they have to prove themselves to him on a regular basis, whereas everyone else is just scared of him.

Eric: Exactly.

Matt: Well, Voldemort...

Eric: Well, the thing about the books, I mean, the Death Eaters are all scared of him. They call him the Dark Lord, they won't use his name.

Micah: Exactly.

Eric: In fact Bellatrix thinks Harry's a nutjob when he uses his name.

Matt: Well, also Tom Riddle also said, you know, that he wanted to create a name that even the most bravest wizard would fear to say it or something like that.

Jamie: Yeah.

Matt: Like he wanted his name to be feared; it's not that the name was tabooed, it's just everyone was too afraid to say it.

Eric: Exactly, and if you translate it, it means "Flight From Death," which is pretty creepy.

Jamie: Yep.

Micah: Yep.

Matt: Yep.

Jamie: Yep.

Matt: Sorry, Andrew.

Andrew: No, I don't know, I just...

Eric: Last Muggle Mail?

Andrew: No, nevermind.

Psychologist Stereotypes

Eric: Sweet, I'll get the last one. This is from Megan age 19 of Parkland, Washington. She says:

"Hey there, MuggleCasters. I just wanted to make a couple of comments on the most recent show. As I was listening and you began to talk about psychologists, I started to giggle, but then I started to frown. I am going to be graduating with a Psychology degree and I am saddened by the stereotypes that are placed on psychologists. They are not all like the typical Freudian image with the therapists sitting there while the patient lies on the couch while they blab about their whole life. Just thought I should say something. Also, I really like the idea of making the show a more diverse genre. I love all four series you picked and I look forward to hearing what you come up with. I applaud Laura for being a strong feminist, as I am one myself, and I think Jamie has a sexy voice."

Andrew: Oh!

Jamie: That's nice. I think that stereotype's awesome.

Andrew: It is. You see it all the time in TV and stuff.

Eric: You really do.

Jamie: But I'm sure it's not true though.

Eric: I've heard about another stereotype about psychologists, that they all kind of have issues and that's why they become psychologists.

Andrew: I'm sure Megan really appreciates that.

Jamie: [laughs] That's not true, Eric.

Matt: That's so not true, Eric.

Eric: No, no. I'm just joking. My girlfriend studied adolescent psychopathology and I like to tease her, so it's really nothing to do with anybody.

Matt: Well, the whole - well, the conversation - well, I think it was Jamie, Micah, and I had about psychologists was basically - we basically just said that psychologists, you know, control the world.

Eric: Hmmm.

Jamie: It's a compliment.

Andrew: They make a lot of money.

Matt: It's kind of a stereotype, but it's kind of not.

Jamie: No, no it's so true.

Matt: You can't generalize with all psychologists because a lot of psychologists like to help you, but there's like so many different kinds of different psychologists. There are.

Jamie: No, but, Matt, I didn't mean it as a bad thing that they take over the world, I just mean that they're brilliant because they know how to - like, for example, I saw a TV show advertise it's name on the TV guide on the TV was breaking into Tesco. Now Tesco is this huge superstore here and, as for being a superstore, it has a huge security system and everything like that. It's a huge, huge - has huge security budgets and stuff like that, and the actual program was about people cooking for them and bringing products onto their shelves, which apparently is really, really hard to do. But I clicked on it immediately because I thought it was going to be people armed with knives and balaclavas trying to break into it, passed their security systems, and I think that was created by a psychologist, since I think everyone else is going to do exactly the same.

Matt: Well, I definitely love psychologists when they're involved with big things, because they always see things that a lot of people cannot see, because they think about - because they know about the human brain and how humans think.

Eric: Yeah.

Matt: So you definitely need one on your side.

Eric: Yeah.

Jamie: You do definitely, but it's a great profession.

Micah: I always thought it was psychiatrists that sit on the couch not psychologists. Am I wrong?

Jamie: Well, it’s all - well, I think...

Andrew: Yeah, you’re right.

Jamie: I don't know.

Matt: Psychiatrists study psychology.

Jamie: No, they don’t, Matt.

Matt: Yeah, they do.

Eric: They study psychiatry.

Jamie: No, they don’t, Matt. Psychiatry's a...

Matt: Fine.

Jamie: You need a medical degree.

Chapter-by-Chapter

Andrew: All right, well that does it for Muggle Mail this week. We’re going to get into Chapter-by-Chapter now. Chapters 24 and 25. Eric, you want to kick it off? Oh gosh. Oh. I think I’m going to have to leave. I can't - I don’t want to.

Eric: What?

Andrew: The beginning off this chapter is too sad. Eric and

Matt: Oh.

Eric: Gosh. You know, actually I...

Matt: You’re such a drama queen.

Eric: I think -I think Micah should read the first point because Micah used to have something with Dobby before he left him for the goat. There was a - there was an old avatar I made for Micah based on something he told, I believe it was, Andrew on one of the earlier episodes that "Andrew was not ready for the Dobster." That...

Micah: Oh, yeah.

Eric: ...Andrew got "pwned by Dobby" in one of the earlier...

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: ...book discussions.

Micah: Wow. How long ago was that?

Eric: Thirty-four.

Andrew: That’s old school MuggleCast.

Eric: So - yeah, man. So, Micah, why don’t you read the sad news? This is news, guys. This is news. So, Micah.

Chapter 24, "The Wandmaker"

Micah: Well, we all know how the chapter ended from last week, and how it starts off this week. Dobby obviously dies and Harry buries him without using any magic, which, you know, I guess is more of a sign of respect than anything else, and that’s kind of where I’ll leave it. I didn’t actually listen to last week's show, Andrew. I haven’t had a chance to listen to it yet. Did you put any music in there for him?

Andrew: Sorry, for which character? Dobby?

Micah: Dobby. Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, yeah. He did.

Andrew: He suggested a song. Yeah. Right I did. Yeah.

Jamie: Oh yeah.

Matt: [singing] "I want to...

Andrew: Whatever song you said. What song was it?

Matt: ...break free!"

Andrew: Yeah, "I Want to Break Free." Yeah.

Eric: Love that.

Andrew: Jamie is like, "Oh please. God yes, please."

Jamie: Yeah, that was exactly what I was like.

Andrew: You know you were.

Jamie: No, I know I was.

[Everyone laughs]

Dobby's Death

Andrew: So yeah. So Dobby dies. I loved how Harry didn’t use magic to bury him.

Matt: I - yeah. It was almost like he forced to do it. Like he was so angry at the thought of using magic for him that - either because it wasn’t really, you know, deserving. Someone needed to get on their hands and just...

Eric: He deserved someone to really dig the grave. And the thing about it is that - the first point here about Harry burying Dobby is that it makes such a big impact on Griphook. And really does work to serve for Harry’s benefit because Griphook is really - Griphook calls Harry a strange wizard when they talk to him for having that sort of profound respect for Dobby. But Harry is there...

Andrew: Right.

Eric: ...digging the grave, and he’s out there so long eventually, I guess, he gets joined by Dean and someone else with a shovel, too.

Matt: Isn’t - is it Ron?

Eric: I think it's Ron. And then after all of it Harry puts that little stone there and "Here lies Dobby, a free elf." It’s just - It’s really emotional, and...

Andrew: But this is also a big turning point for Harry because this is when he’s just fed up with it and he realizes that something - something’s got to give.

Eric: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Basically.

Matt: Well...

Andrew: What were you going to say, Matt?

Matt: Well, what did you guys think about the speech they gave for Dobby for his funeral? Like what Luna said?

Eric: Oh, all Harry could say was, "Good-bye, Dobby." That was horrible. That was - that was heart wrenching.

Matt: That was really sad. That’s going to be a really hard scene.

Eric: You know what was the saddest thing? I don’t even know of - talking about translation to movie, Matt, they put socks on him. They put socks and shoes on Dobby and Dean conjured him a hat. And they...

Jamie: Awww....

Eric: So Harry closed his eyes and everyone else conjured clothing for him. And gave him clothes and buried him with...

Matt: Well, was it Harry that closed his eyes? I thought it was Luna.

Eric: Oh, maybe it was Luna. One of them gave shoes, though. And socks. And Dean conjured the hat.

Matt: Well, I’m sure they’re going to do that in the film. It’s just it won't be very relevant to the people who...

Eric: Considering...

Matt: ...haven’t read the books.

Eric: Well, considering...

Jamie: Yeah, that’s true.

Eric: ...he’s been gone from all the movies, you know, since...

Matt: Uh-huh. Well, he - well, Harry also wraps him in his jacket as a blanket, too, which I thought was really sad.

Eric: So cute.

Jamie: Have you guys...

Matt: It’s kind of like a little baby.

Jamie: Have you guys seen why people put coins over there eyes?

Eric: Well, yeah, that’s to - that’s to give them...

Matt: Yes.

Eric: ...money to pass in to the - to give the two cents to the boatman that was Chiron.

Jamie: No, I mean, yeah, Chrion.

Eric: I don’t mean Sharon. [laughs] Chiron. Maybe on the weekend...

Jamie: [laughs] She's a bit more exciting.

[Everyone laughs]

Matt: Sharon Chostlemore.

[Everyone laughs]

Grief and Love

Eric: If you want Sharon to take you across the lake. Anyway, Griphook thinks that Harry is very strange. And Griphook - we'll actually come back to that, what Griphook says. But Harry concludes that he has finally succeeded in shutting Voldemort out of his head, and that it's actually grief that is his tool for doing so. So Harry kind of figures out 'cause he's really sad for Dobby, and, currently, Voldemort is at the Malfoy Manor presumably flipping a bitch on all his Death Eaters. And because, I mean, if you think about it, this is probably the angriest that we've ever - I mean, not seen Voldemort, obviously, but Harry Potter was there and in serious condition. They had him, and once again they let him go. And Voldemort was so far away, and it's just one of those things. You expect to see Voldemort the angriest he's ever been, but you don't, because Harry's finally learn to shut him out and he says it's grief. Dumbledore would've said it was love, but it was actually grief. And J.K.R. even confirms here while writing that it was grief for Sirius, not necessarily how much love there was in Harry, but the grief side of love that prevented Voldemort from possessing him at the end of Book/Movie 5.

Andrew: Is it grief or is it just like an extreme distraction? If you have so much grief your mind is completely on something else, like Dobby. So is it that your mind's just completely distracted? Like, I don't understand. Is it just something that's on your mind that's closing out Voldemort or is it actually grief? Like, I don't understand how grief would close your mind.

Matt: There has - I think it has to be a sort of emotion or something that's locked in your head and that creates a block from anyone that tries to go through and open your mind.

Eric: It's not just a kind of fatigue sort of grief, because if you're tired, you know, then your defenses are weaker, then Voldemort can penetrate your mind like Harry, you know...

Matt: Well, also, he says, when he's digging the spade into making the hole, he keeps going - saying the two words over in his mind, "Horcrux" - what was the other word?

Andrew: "Hallows"? So that's what it is, it's just something distracting Harry so much that that's all he can think about.

Eric: Well, no, it's also the compassion side of it, Andrew. I mean it's love and grief. When I asked what's the difference, I mean, because the grief for Dobby is that, you know, it's a creature that he loved so much in a way. To have him dead and have to be burying him and to be fighting this war, it's just - it's very - obviously, it's very depressing, but I still think compassion still has to do something with it, it's just not specifically that Harry has a bunch of love in him. It's the ability to feel for others.

Jamie: And also if you go on the grief article on Wikipeida it gives the processes of grief, the stages of it...

Eric: Oh, I love those things.

Jamie: ...and the first one is shock and denial; disbelief. And it says feelings of unreality, depersonalization, withdrawal, and an anesthetizing effect. So I guess his mind wasn't working like a mind and it has to be working like a mind for Voldemort to come into him, perhaps.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Nice research, Jamie.

Eric: So you guys are saying he's actually less human in order to block out Voldemort?

Jamie: Oh, no, no, no. That isn't...

Eric: Well, it's a dysfunction in his mind. You're saying it's more of a...

Matt: Well, he's not as open. He's not as open, also. That's the whole point of penetrating your mind.

Jamie: Yes.

Matt: His mind is set on one thing right now.

Jamie: Exactly.

Eric: So if he were extremely focused on something else, then...

Jamie: Well, no, no. With - this is a complete conjecture, but it's just perhaps, you know. It's just a perhaps.

Andrew: So, Matt, like you were saying, Harry's in there digging that hole saying "Horcruxes" or "Hallows," and this is why, because he's trying to - he's deciding which one to go with and he then decides that - to go with the Horcruxes because that's the plan that Dumbledore left him with and it must have been for a good reason.

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: Exactly. He's choosing whether or not he should talk to Griphook first or Olivander first, because, to be perfectly honest, either one of them could die. They're kind of weak. They've been in a cellar for - well, I mean, Olivander's been in a cellar for really long. I was worried - when I was reading this chapter the first time - I was worried that in choosing to talk to Griphook first, Olivander would die and we'd not get the satisfaction of all these answers regarding the wand. So I kind of treated it like it was a really sensitive choice. I mean Harry said the time is now. Do I choose to find out more about the Horcruxes or do I learn all I want about, you know, the Elder Wand, one of the Hallows.

Matt: Well this was - because this was definitely a fork in the road for Harry's journey because he had the two - he had both Olivander and Griphook that could lead him to different roads in this journey. And he chose the one that he initially went on, that Dumbledore gave him to do, which was get the Horcruxes, which means that he had to go to Griphook.

Tangent: Casting

Andrew: Yeah. Just really quick movie mention: I really hope John Hurt comes back to play Olivander.

Matt: I do, too. I was thinking the same thing.

Andrew: And I'm looking at his IMDB, and he's been in a lot of projects, so I mean he's still pretty active. And...

Matt: He's a great actor.

Eric: He has to come back. I mean if they don't get John Hurt to come back, I mean...seriously.

Andrew: Yeah. It's just the whole it's been ten years, or whatever, so...

Eric: Well, that's the other thing...

Matt: I hope they get Verne Troyer too to play Griphook.

Eric: Well, yeah, exactly. Exactly. They need Vern Troyer to play Griphook and they need John Hurt to play - sorry - Ollivander.

Andrew: And Dan Radcliffe to play Harry Potter.

Jamie: No!

Eric: No, no, no, no! I am just talking about continuity between the films.

[Jamie laughs]

Eric: Yeah, Dan's too expensive. They're going to decide to go with lower budget goods.

Matt: Well, since we're on this chapter, can I just say that - was it hard for you to actually vision Bill Weasley?

Andrew: Yeah. I never really picture him.

Matt: Because you see all the other characters from the movie have already been introduced, so you see kind of the actors in your mind also when you read the books, but...

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: ...Bill is the only one of this whole group that you haven't seen yet. So it's almost hard to vision him talking to them.

Eric: Well, the thing of it is, is that his face has been torn off, and it's got so heavy scarring, and he like only eats blood red meat now. That's what's difficult for me. I always had a picture of Bill in my mind ever since Book 4, you know, so it never really interferes not having an actor to go with in the movies, but at the end of Book 6 when he gets, you know, attacked by Fenrir Grayback I just can't picture that. Same thing with Moody. He was described as having like a wooden, you know, face almost, with the way it was. And it's just some of the ways J.K.R. describes it is, I just think, difficult for me to really, really picture. Like when she will talk about the scarring extensively I start wondering whether or not my image of Bill is correct.

Matt: Right, right, right. Okay. All right, so where are we now in this chapter? [laughs]

Harry Talks to Griphook

Andrew: Well, he decided to go with the Horcruxes, so he's going to talk to Griphook.

Eric: Yeah. And...

Andrew: And - Go ahead, Eric.

Eric: So he chooses to talk to Griphook and Griphook calls him a really strange wizard. Apparently, Griphook was watching Harry bury Dobby, so...

Andrew: I thought that was really - I just want to - when he called him a really strange wizard I think that was really interesting. It just really shows you how different Harry is.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: 'Cause here's a goblin telling him he's really strange. I just - that was such a really - honestly, that was a really moving scene when I first read it.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: I don't know. It meant something.

Eric: 'Cause it's almost like respect, but, I mean, Griphook's a little, you know - Griphook's not very pleasant, you know, and by the next chapter they're all really kind of tired of him. But the whole thing is that, you know, he calls him a strange wizard and he kind of goes into this rant or a tangent about how wizards and - or what does he call them? Wand holders? Wand carriers?

Jamie: Wand carriers, yeah.

Eric: Wand carriers, yeah, don't allow goblins and other magical creatures, non wand carriers, to actually have wands, which could potentially, if they were allowed to have wands, extend their powers that way. They're kind of debating, and Ron, of course, says a bunch of dumb things about, "Well, you guys can do magic without wands!" and stuff. There's this whole kind of argument, just racial undertones, and Hermione finally says, "Stop, guys, you know, we don't want to talk about whose race is more underhanded and violent" and all that stuff. And then, you know, they obviously have to kind of try and get the discussion going.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: So I don't know. Any thoughts on that racial overtone and stuff? 'Cause we've seen it before in the books, but now it's kind of getting down to the point where if it weren't for Harry's being special that, you know, he wouldn't have had any help and success breaking into Gringotts.

Matt: Well, I also just want to point out that one of the things that he said about Harry was actually pretty sincere. When he talked how - when Harry asked that he needed to get into the vault, and he said that he knows what that poem was. Let me see if I can find it. Yeah. "If you seek beneath our floors, a treasure that was never yours, thief you have been warned. Beware." And something like that.

Jamie: Finding more than treasure.

Matt: Right, and Harry tells Griphook that he is not trying to steal this for his own personal gain and then Griphook says "If there's any wizard that would not" - "If he could believe" - Dang it. I can't do this without reading it so...oh, here it is: "If there was a wizard of whom I would believe that they did not seek personal gain, it would be you, Harry Potter."

Andrew: Yeah. That's true.

Matt: Yeah! I just thought that, despite all his - all the past prejudgments on wizards he knows, that Harry Potter is a genuinely good person.

Andrew: Well, I think it's moving to see a wizard bury a house elf.

Matt: Mhm. Andrew I mean I'm sure he's never seen that before.

Jamie: Yeah, and...

Micah: You mean instead of cut off their heads and put them on the wall?

Andrew: Right, exactly, yeah.

Jamie: And then there’s like – and there’s obviously the political stuff here that Jo loves so much, you know, about people treating people properly regardless of who they are.

Andrew: No matter who they are!

Matt: Yeah.

Jamie: And also, didn’t Sirius tell Harry that it's you judge a man on how he treats his inferiors, not his...

Eric: Not his equals.

Jamie: Was it Dumbledore?

Eric: No, no, it was Sirius in Book 4.

Jamie: So he obviously learned something from...

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: ...Sirius. A lot from him, which is nice.

Eric: Yeah. That was...

Matt: A person's a person, no matter how small.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: No matter how small. Horton Hears a Who, Dr. Seuss.

[Jamie laughs]

Andrew: I didn’t even think of that.

Micah: Which was very hypocritical, though, when you look at the way he treated Kreacher.

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: Well, yeah, yeah, you’re right. But he had a lot of family resentment because his parents were – yeah. But...

Andrew: Anyway...

Ollivander

Eric: Anyway, okay, so what? Harry goes into Ollivander’s and immediately takes out his wand and he says, "Can you fix this? Can it be fixed? Is there anyway you can fix the wand?" And Ollivander looks at it and he’s like, "Yeah, sorry, dude. No. Not going to work. I don’t really..." And Harry's like, "Aw." You know, it’s a blow. He kind of figured that his wand could be repaired but now it’s official. His wand is broken. That...

Matt: That he knows of. He doesn’t - He just says out of his knowledge of wandlore it cannot be repaired with that much damage.

Andrew: Yeah, but if Harry goes to Ollivander...

Eric: Well, I mean Ollivander made the wand in the first place.

Matt: Well, no, I’m just saying, you know, there’s hope. The book's not over yet.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: There’s not hope.

Andrew: No, there’s not hope. It’s all over.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Ollivander or bust.

Eric: Yeah.

Matt: Fine, I just hope you’re right at the end of this book.

Eric: He’d better. He’d better. Okay, so, yeah, it’s a little bit weird. Okay, so Ollivander – I mean, he has the discussion with Harry and Harry asks him a bunch of questions and Harry, of course, knows exactly what happened between Ollivander and Voldemort having seen it through Voldemort’s eyes, and that kind of creeps Ollivander out but in the end of it all, Harry isn't sure whether or not he likes Ollivander. He has the same issue he had with him the first time, which is that when they’re talking about Voldemort getting the Elder Wand, which is now confirmed to exist - Ollivander believes it exists, and that kind of convinces Hermione as well. But, at the end of it all, it seems that Ollivander is as sort of enthralled about Voldemort having the Elder Wand. Such a dark, powerful wizard having such a powerful wand as he is appalled by it, and Harry isn’t sure whether or not he likes him.

Jamie: That just pinpoints the whole Harry being the only person who can vanquish the Dark Lord because he’s the only one who doesn’t think, "Wow, you know, you have to be impressed with this person even if you’re completely repulsed by him."

Matt: Yeah. Well, like he just said, like, "He Who Must Not Be Named did great things. Terrible things but still great."

Jamie: Yeah. It, like – yeah, exactly. Harry is the only person who doesn’t...

Matt: Yeah, you may not like the wizard but you respect the things that he did.

Eric: [laughs] But he’s got syle.

Matt: Yes.

Eric: You can’t deny, Voldemort's got style.

Jamie: Yeah.

Matt: So Harry and Ollivander also have like a little conversation about how, you know, wands get taken by or passed over to others by, you know, being defeated or technically - sorry, am I going to far ahead?

Eric: No, no, no. No, it’s good. It’s just - and then he tells Harry that he can use Draco’s wand, but, yeah, you’re doing fine.

Matt: Okay, so – yeah, so basically all they did was just talk about how wands have been passed over and what kind of criteria is there that has to be passed over to each person, and Harry finds out from Ollivander that not – technically, you don’t need to kill anybody to pass over a wand to each person.

Voldemort and the Elder Wand

Eric: Probably the biggest change in Harry is at the end of the chapter. Do you guys know what I’m talking about here? Because it’s a pretty big deal. Harry decides not to act because he sees Voldemort heading to Hogwarts to get the Elder Wand from Dumbledore’s tomb because, lo and behold, Dumbledore had the Elder Wand, and he doesn’t tell anyone, but Voldemort goes and gets the Elder Wand, and Hermione and Ron are all like, "We have to go to Hogwarts, we have to get the Elder Wand." Blah, blah, blah, and Harry's like, "Yeah, it’s too late."

Matt: Yeah. Harry knew in the back of his mind that Dumbledore probably took the Elder Wand, had it. He just wanted to know what the connection was between Grindlewald and how he got it, because I think he knew that Grindlewald had the Elder Wand and Dumbledore took it from him. But he just - I think he wanted it confirmed on how Grindlewald got it, and...

Jamie: And also, it’s the kind of thing that Dumbledore would’ve accounted for before he died and Harry knew that Dumbledore sort of, you know...

Jamie: Power was his weakness, or did he know that by then? He didn't, did he?

Matt: That power was Dumbledore's weakness?

Jamie: Yeah, he did - he didn't...

Matt: Um, no. No, I don't think he did.

Eric: He hadn't read that one part of that letter, which had said that he was really power-hungry. That appears later, I believe.

Matt: Yeah, and also...

Jamie: Well, I just think...

Matt: ...Dumbledore...

Jamie: Sorry, go.

Matt: Dumbledore confesses it to Harry later on in the book.

Jamie: Yeah. Okay, yeah. But also, even at this stage, Harry wouldn't think that Dumbledore would just be buried along with this hugely important wand if Voldemort wasn't supposed to get it somehow.

Matt: Yes, and also if Dumbledore knew that he had the Elder Wand and he was going to get killed, I think - and he knew that Voldemort would have a chance to take it from him...

Jamie: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, he would've hid it better or given it to somebody else.

Andrew: Yeah, hid it better.

Micah: Well, that's why it all goes back to the tower.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I mean, everything goes back to that night on the tower. That's why he let Draco disarm him. Do you really think if he was going to prevent what was about to happen that he wouldn't have used something more powerful? I mean he could've easily gotten out of that situation without any trouble.

Jamie: Easily, easily.

Eric: Especially with the Elder Wand. Yeah.

Micah: And that's why - he knew Snape was going to kill him, and he knew that Snape would be at risk regardless, because if Snape had - If Dumbledore was still in possession of, say, the Elder Wand's allegiance at the time, it most likely would've transferred over to Snape. Snape would've been a liability in the sense that...

Jamie: Yeah.

Micah: ...he could've been killed by Voldemort, which he was at the end for that very reason. So that's why I believe that Dumbledore allowed Draco to disarm him.

Matt: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, it's true.

Matt: Yeah, because he was, you know - no one would've guessed that Draco would've got the Elder Wand.

Jamie: No, exactly.

Micah: Right, and that's why in that final scene when Harry reveals a fact that Draco's wand was, in fact, the one who had the allegiance to the Elder Wand Voldemort kind of just shrugged it off. He didn't really believe it.

Eric: Yeah. But that's what happened, isn't it? We're meant to believe by the end of the book that when Draco disarmed Dumbledore, the allegiance of the Elder Wand was Draco's. Is that correct?

Micah: Correct.

Eric: Okay, okay.

Micah: And then when Harry became in possession of Draco's wand, that allegiance was transferred.

Eric: Anyway, I guess that wraps up Chapter 24, and Chapter 25 is half as long discussion-wise?

Andrew: Yeah. Well, I think so.

Matt: Basically, these two chapters pretty much are the same.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: I honestly think that the only reason why there was a separation between the two chapters was because of that last scene with Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: But I think one thing that totally creeped me out at the end of the Chapter 24 was when Voldemort just pulls the wand right out of Dumbledore's hands.

Click here to go to page three