MuggleCast 150 Transcript

Show Intro

[Intro music begins]

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[Harry Potter theme plays]

Jim Dale: [as Professor McGonagall] This is Professor McGonagall welcoming you all to MuggleCast hoping you enjoyed - Dobby! Dobby, come here! Here! Dobby! [as Dobby] Yes, I'd just like to say how very pleased I am to introduce MuggleCast to all of you! Thank you! Thank you!

[Show music begins]

Andrew: Because it's not every day you turn the big one-five-oh, this is MuggleCast Episode 150 for June 23rd, 2008.

[Show music continues]

Andrew: All right, ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the 150th episode of MuggleCast. Yeah!

Laura: Woo!

Andrew: Woo-hoo! Da-da-da-da-da-da!

Micah: You didn't hire a band or anything to play...?

Matt: I was waiting for a clip or something.

Andrew: Well, GoDaddy hasn't been doing so well, so...

Micah: Oh.

Laura: Well, I'm just frankly amazed that we made it this far without killing each other yet. I mean...

Andrew: I know. [laughs]

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I mean, 150 episodes is a long time, guys.

Matt: Oh, so you're saying - why do you think there's only four people on the show today?

Laura: Oh, yeah. About that.

Andrew: Well, it's our 150th introduction. You know, we say 150, but you then you have to remember that we've done these mini-shows, and we've done Leaky Mugs, so while it feels like 150, it's not 150. [laughs] You know what I mean?

Laura: It's more like 175, or something like that. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, exactly.

Laura: Oh gosh.

Andrew: Anyway. We have a very exciting show today for everybody. We're going to be taking a look back at some of the best of MuggleCast as submitted by all of our wonderful listeners, who have been listening for such a long time. And we've got some other stuff going on. So I'm Andrew Sims.

Laura: I'm Laura Thompson.

Micah: I'm Micah Tannenbaum.

Matt: And I'm Matt Britton.

Laura: Way to sound subdued, Matt. [laughs]

Andrew: What he does, is he always, like, copies whatever the last person - they're voice tone.

Laura: Oh, yeah.

Micah: But he didn't sound like he was sure of who he was.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Matt: I'm Matt Britton, I'm Matt Britton, oh my God, I'm Matt Britton. [laughs sarcastically] Matt Britton.

[Show music continues]

Andrew: All right, Micah, give us the news.

Micah: Well... [laughs]

[Laura laughs]

Micah: I've never actually heard you say it like that before.

Andrew: I've been listening to a lot of Howard Stern lately, so I'm in a more broadcast news anchor sort of mood these days.

Micah: All right. All right. Let...

Andrew: Give us the news.

Micah: Okay.

Matt: Will you stop plugging Howard Stern?

Andrew: Hey now. Anyway, what's going on in the news, Micah?

News: No Script in the Works for Theme Park

Micah: Well, over the last week or so we had a bit of a mini-movie fiasco going on, and this was back last Sunday, on June 15. The Sunday Mirror, the most reputable paper over in Britain, reported...

Andrew: Not.

Micah: ...that J. K. Rowling had written a mini-movie script to be taped for the Wizarding World of Harry Potter Theme Park, and they said that the trio was going to be involved, and they were going to film this prior to Deathly Hallows. And it seemed that this had a lot of credibility because MTV even, a couple days later on one of their movie blogs, made a post about how they had been in contact with Warner Brothers or somebody over at Warner Brothers, and they had never - they had not really confirmed nor denied, but the person seemed to think that because of the fact that a lot of the rides at Universal Studios, that are related to movies, have these, sort of, mini-movies, that it was probably going to happen. Then, of course, a couple days after that, Warner Brothers issues a statement saying that no scripts for any films related to the prequel that J. K. Rowling had written for charity or for any other purposes were in the works at this time. So, I think, more so than anything else, maybe we were just digging for news and it's not really there.

Andrew and Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I could - I - I think this is a possibility though. Like, you can definitely see something like this happening. It's happened on other rides before, like, you know, in Disney, you see tons of extra appearances by the characters in their film modes, so to speak.

Matt: Well, they can also do like - like a movie, like a mini-movie that people come in and watch it in like 3-D or something. Like in theme parks in Walt Disneyworld and Disneyland and other theme parks where you go in, put on your 3-D goggles, and watch the movie, and it has - sometimes it's like four dimensional, where you can like feel the smoke coming at you, or just...

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: ... other things.

Laura: Mhm.

Andrew: Right. Right, but the point is, does it exist? Does this exist, Laura? Can you see this happening?

Laura: Oh, I think so. I mean, just because, I mean, I've been there and that's how so many of the rides are in this theme park, especially as you're waiting in line, because the lines for these rides tend to be obnoxiously long. So not only will they film some sort of mini-movie for the ride, but they'll film something to keep you entertained while you're standing in line. So I don't see how they could really have this whole Harry Potter section and then not have any kind of movie interaction. It wouldn't really make sense with the rest of the park.

Andrew: Right. Definitely. What else is going on?

News: Waterstone's Website Gets 70,000 Visitors

Micah: Well, something that was of note was that the prequel that J. K. Rowling did write for charity actually ended up attracting 70,000 visitors over to Waterstone's website, which...

Andrew: All MuggleNet. Next.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

News: Rowling Makes it on List of 1,000 New Classics

Micah: Yeah. There's not - I mean, it's not really that big of a - of a news story, but, you know, I thought it was kind of interesting, and we needed something to talk about. Next, [laughs] as you said, Entertainment Weekly made a list. Now, this kind of seemed a little bit odd to me. They created a list of one thousand new classics. That's a lot, isn't it?

Matt: Yeah, it is.

Micah: I find it hard to believe that you could find a thousand new classics. And new and classic don't really go together. It's kind of an oxymoron.

Laura: Well, it's almost like - I mean, generally, if you call something a classic it's kind of a very restricted field...

Micah: Right.

Laura: ...of things, you know, and it's like, to pick one thousand of them, it seems somewhat overwhelming. It's like, okay, so are we classifying something as a classic just because it's popular? You know?

Micah: Right. That's what bothered me about this. Like you mentioned, there's a little bit too many of them to name them classics. But, anyway. J.K. Rowling was named the top favorite author. Really no surprise there. But Goblet of Fire was named number two of the best read between 1983 and 2008. Interesting. why Goblet of Fire?

Andrew: What's this based off of? This wasn't people voting in a poll, right?

Micah: I honestly don't know. You made the post.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Sorry.

Andrew: So I did. I don't know. It's - I think it was picked within the editors at Entertainment Weekly. It's like, Goblet of Fire?

Matt: Yeah.

Andrew: I mean, does anyone here think it's a classic? In the past twenty years or whatever?

Laura: Well I think the Harry Potter books as a collective series are classics...

Andrew: Yeah. Right. So why does it say Goblet of Fire?

Laura: [sighs] I mean, honestly, if I - I mean, I don't like to chose favorites with Harry Potter 'cause there are things from all the books that I love, but I've always been especially partial to the fourth book, so I can kind of see where they're coming from.

Matt: I just remember that Goblet of Fire had the biggest release party of the books to date.

Andrew: I think Goblet of Fire...

Laura: No.

Andrew: That was the first book actually had release parties.

Laura: It was. Yeah.

Andrew: Because nobody went to Prisoner of Azkaban. That was - yeah. Yeah. I mean it's cool. It's kind of weird though, I mean, I don't know. What would you guys pick as a classic if you just had to pick one?

Laura: Out of Harry Potter? Or...

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Hmm...

Andrew: I would pick the first.

Matt: Well, if you define classic it would be the first.

Andrew: Right, that's what I'm saying, yeah.

Micah: I would agree with that.

Laura: But you mean like - I mean - I mean, are you talking in terms of, like, sequential order, or like, you know...

Andrew: Well, I guess I'm saying the definition of a classic would be something that, you know, a hundred years from now people will still be enjoying...

Matt: Well, in classic - oh sorry.

Andrew: Go ahead.

Matt: Well, in a classic you go for originality and Sorcerer's Stone was the first book and...

Laura: That's true. That's a fair point.

Andrew: That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

News: Cedric Diggory's Death a Classic

Micah: So - and there were just a couple of other things that made some of Entertainment Weekly's lists. The death of Cedric Diggory was listed in the twenty-five classic death scenes. Now, again...

Andrew: That's nice.

Micah: ...Goblet of Fire. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah, someone who put this list together was obviously a big Goblet of Fire fan, I think.

Micah: Right. I also wondered, looking at those two things, if maybe it was because that's sort of when the series starts to really turn and it moves more from, you know, the happy end of things, the magical side of things, to the more serious and dark side.

Matt: Well, how do you think J.K. Rowling feels about this list, because she said that The Goblet of Fire is her least favorite book out of the series, also. And this turns out to be the biggest classic?

Andrew: No, I don't - yeah, I don't think - she's probably thinking WTF, too.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: I'm sure she speaks in those terms. I'm sure she walks around going, "WTF!"

[Andrew and Matt laugh]

Matt: LOL.

Laura: Oh my God. LOL!

Andrew: Well, I'm sure if she looks in the MuggleNet comments she sees comments like that.

Micah and Laura: Yep.

Andrew: Anyway, lastly, the most depressing news of the week, Micah?

News: Sorcerer's Stone Cover a Classic Too

Micah: Hold on, you left out Mary GrandPre and her Sorcerer's Stone cover.

Andrew: Oh God. You're still on this? Come on.

Micah: Yeah! Number twenty on the 25 top classic covers. Come on!

Andrew: Great, great. That's nice.

Depressing News: No Teaser Trailer

Micah: The most depressing news? What are you talking about?

Andrew: The trailer.

Micah: The fact that it's five years since Order of the Phoenix was released?

Andrew: No, no, no. No teaser trailer with Get Smart.

Micah: Oh, no teaser trailer.

Matt: Oh.

Micah: Yeah. What's up with that?

Andrew: I don't know. I think...

Micah: Where's...

Andrew: looks like...

Micah: We're missing a picture. Come on! I mean, we don't have a picture?

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: We don't have our weekly picture!

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Something's really up. I actually got excited the other day. Someone was like "New picture in Borders email!" but it was like a fake Half-Blood Prince cover. It was weird. That Borders actually distributed. But, yeah, so no trailer. It looks like it'll be with Get - Dark Knight. Unless WB comes completely out of the blue and releases it with Wall-E this week.

Matt: But that's a - yeah, The Dark Knight's in a month away, though.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: Well, has it ever happened...

Laura: If they release it with Wall-E, and I have to go see that movie, [laughs] I'm going to be very upset.

Matt: [gasps] You don't want to see Wall-E?

Andrew: Awww.

Laura: No!

Andrew and Matt: Why not?

Laura: It looks inane.

Andrew: It looks fantastic. Do your Wall-E impression, Matt.

Matt: [in Wall-E voice] "Wall-E."

Laura: Oh my God.

Andrew: He's so cute, Wall-E's so cute! Okay, fine, Laura. Think what you want.

Micah: Has it ever happened before that there is no teaser trailer? I mean, could we just get a regular trailer in a couple of months?

Andrew: No.

Matt: No.

Laura: No, there have always been teaser trailers.

Andrew: I think, though - I'm going to put some money down on this bet. Now that Get Smart is out of the way, Warner Brothers will have more time to focus on Harry Potter. So then, they will, you know, start releasing more stuff related to Half-Blood Prince. I'm just a betting man, though.

Matt: Do you think that's the reason why they haven't released any...

Andrew: Yes!

Matt: ...promos...

Andrew: Yes.

Matt: ...because they want everyone to center on Dark Knight?

Andrew: I think the people within WB who handle Harry Potter are busy with Get Smart right now.

Matt: Uh-huh.

Announcement: Portus 2008

Andrew: I'm just a betting man. So anyway, thank you, Micah, for that. Let's move along to the announcements. Laura.

Laura: Andrew.

Andrew: It's time for your weekly announcement.

Laura: [laughs] I don't understand how this has become my weekly announcement, but...

Micah: It's because you live there.

Laura: ...somehow it has.

Micah: Didn't you?

Laura: I did live there, yeah. Well...

Micah: Yeah.

Laura: ...not there, but I did...

Andrew: Yeah, that's exactly why.

Laura: in Texas.

Andrew: That's exactly why it's yours. Because it was Dallas, and, you know, we would always talk to you about Dallas.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And, you know. You're going home.

Laura: Yeah! I'm so excited! I'm going to the land of my childhood this summer, and the...

Andrew: Nobody cares. Let's talk about Portus.

[Micah laughs]

Laura: You know what? I was about to say that I'm going to be there with some of my best friends, but you know what? Now I just don't want to talk anymore. So...

Andrew: Awww. Okay, Matt, you want to talk about it?

Matt: Guys, just go. Just go to Portus.

[Laura laughs]

Matt: You want to see us. You know you do.

Laura: It's going to be fun. Register now.

Andrew: But, no. In all seriousness, It's going to be from July 10th to the 13th in Dallas, Texas. We'll be doing a podcast there at midnight on Friday night. Now I have to check that. It's Friday, right? Yeah, it's Friday. But technically Saturday morning, and we're going to have Aziza on the show soon. You guys remember, she interviewed Jim Dale with us, and soon we'll have her on to answer your questions about Portus. People have some questions about Palooza passes, and all that, so, we'll address that with her.

Announcement: Podcast Alley

Andrew: So, guys, want to remind everyone to vote for us on Podcast Alley, as always. I think we're number one this week. We checked a couple days ago and we were number one - yes, we're number one. So, that's always good.

Announcement: MuggleCast T-shirt Clear-up

Andrew: Also, I want to clear up one more thing about t-shirts, because we've been getting a lot of emails lately, asking "Where can I get a MuggleCast t-shirt? Can I buy it for you under the table?" And, the answer is, we can't sell t-shirts anymore. We can sell them at live events though, so in a case like Portus, we'll be able to sell t-shirts there. So that's my answer. I just wanted to clear that up instead of responding to everyone, so it's a lot easier to do it here. Sorry, guys, but, you know, it's all we can do.

Muggle Mail: Prequel is a Prequel

Andrew: Let's move on to Muggle Mail this week.

Laura: Our first Muggle Mail comes from Katie, 20, of Nebraska. She writes:

"Hi MuggleCasters, I was just responding to your review of J.K.'s prequel that was auctioned recently. You said in Episode 149 that it wasn't really a prequel to the 'Harry Potter' story, because it didn't relate to Harry's journey. But I think it is. For instance, 'The Hobbit' is considered a prequel to the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy, not because it relates to the major story line, but because it sets up the Ring's discovery and introduction to The Shire. I think this prequel, if the whole thing were written, would be considered a prequel because I'm sure it would set up Lily and James' deaths, which sets up the 'Harry Potter' saga. Let me know what you all think."

Andrew: I thought this was just a good e-mail because, you know, I don't know much about The Hobbit personally. So, I can't really answer this.

Laura: Oh, great book. Well, I mean, the thing is, I think it's slightly different. Because The Hobbit was actually a novel. And...

Andrew: Right. Yeah.

Laura: ...she's right, it did set up the entire trilogy that followed it. But it had a plot to it. This is just a fun thing that Jo wrote, you know, for the storybook. I don't really...

Matt: Yeah. This is just a clip...

Laura: ...think - yeah.

Matt: ...actually.

Laura: I don't think it really has any substance to it, really.

Matt: It really does have no - if this person - if Katie wanted to say that this was a prequel in regards to The Hobbit being a prequel to The Lord of the Rings, that's - it's not - there's no connection between it at all. Because The Hobbit is actually a prequel saying it's introducing all the characters in The Lord of the Rings book. And it is actually giving you a back story to...

Micah: Right.

Matt: ...what actually happens to the main story in The Lord of the Rings, which is the One Ring being power. And, in this little snippet of J.K. Rowling's little prequel, so to speak, it's just establishing two friends having a night out.

Micah: Right.

Matt: Pretty much is all it is. It's really no connection at all.

Micah: This is almost a side event to what would be the prequel. Like, this must be something that got mentioned in a story that Sirius or James were telling somebody at one point. If J.K. Rowling actually were to write a prequel, this is not - this is so small and insignificant in the grand scheme of what an actual prequel would be, in my opinion.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Mhm.

Andrew: Totally. Totally. It's just that everyone called it a prequel because it made headlines. You know, the press. "J.K. Rowling Penning Harry Potter Prequel." No. Not really. She is, but not really.

Laura: It was a fun little tidbit. That was the way I viewed it.

Andrew: Yeah. Exactly.

Muggle Mail: Names of British Houses

Micah: The next e-mail comes from Robert Powell, 62, of Edindale, Virginia. He said:

"In Episode 149, you spent a few moments discussing why J.K. Rowling named a couple houses, i.e. Shell Cottage and the Burrow. This is an old British tradition ranging from the Great Houses to rural thatched cottages. It endures, despite postal codes. A friend of mine purchased a house for a family and their widowed father and named it Fernwall Cottage by combining the second syllables of her married and maiden names. A bit eccentric, perhaps, but charming. Thanks for the show. As an older reader-listener, your podcast gave me lots of insights into a world I usually only get to observe from a distance of forty to fifty years."

Andrew: A lot of people actually sent this in, explaining how that's actually how it works over in England. So I thought that was interesting.

Matt: I think it's really charming though, people name their homes. It just gives it more of like a personality.

Micah: Well, you guys just moved into an apartment. What do you going to name it?

Laura: Yeah. You guys should name it.

Andrew: Well...

Matt: [bleeped] Cottage.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: We actually have a Leaky Cauldron sign out front on - nailed to the door. Not to the door, but like perpendicular to the door. So everyone knows that the people living there are the weirdos...

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: ...that like Harry Potter a lot. I don't know. I guess Potter Cottage, MuggleCast Studios. I don't know. We'll come up with a name.

Muggle Mail: Black, White, and Red Periods

Matt: And our final Muggle Mail e-mail comes from Zeenia, 16, from Phoenix, Arizona. Zeenia writes:

"Hey MuggleCasters! While listening to Episode 148, you were talking about Fred Weasley's death. Then someone, possibly Andrew, mentioned the deaths of Sirius and Dumbledore, and that made me think about the whole theory about someone that represented black would die in one book, someone that represented white in the next, and in the last one someone - and in the last, someone that represented red in the last. Could Fred be this person? And do you think the theory came true with the deaths and the books reflecting a black period, a white period, and a red period?"

Andrew: Maybe Laura can clear this up. Didn't we talk about this so many episodes ago?

Laura: You know, I feel like I remember some kind of theory that concerned...

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: And I feel like for the red we were considering Hagrid. Am I remembering correctly?

Andrew: You may be right.

Laura: But I don't remember where the theory came from.

Andrew: Me neither. I do remember talking about something like this, though.

Laura: Yeah. Gosh. You know what? We should have a new segment called Homework or something where we assign the listeners homework to go and find the things that we talked about 50 episodes ago and remind us so that we know.

Andrew: Okay, well, here's your homework. I was just going to say, someone point out to us when we talked about this. You know, 150 episodes now. Honestly, once we got to Episode 20, I started forgetting like stuff we talked about earlier on.

Laura: Mhm.

Andrew: It's crazy how you forget stuff. But yeah, somebody email. Now, we're going to get a lot of emails, but feel free to email in and help us out remember what we were talking about exactly.

Micah: It had something to do with Alchemy, didn't it?

Andrew: Yeah, I think you may be right. I think you may be right.

Laura: Yeah, because we did do an episode on that. I think.

Micah: We did. At some point, yeah. Because it was all related to the Sorcerers Stone, I believe.

Andrew: Yeah, I think you're right.

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And we said - what Laura had said before, that, you know, the three main colors, or something like that, were red, black, and white, and that Sirius died and then Dumbledore died and then as she mentioned, we thought that Hagrid was going to die because of the - because of his name and it's relation to the color, but...

Laura: Oh, Rubeus. Yeah! Yeah! Now I remember.

Andrew: Okay. Yeah.

Laura: Oh, Okay.

Andrew: Well, thank you.

Micah: Yeah, someone email this, that's probably the best thing to do.

Chapter-by-Chapter: Chapter 34, "The Forest Again"

Andrew: Well, that does it for Muggle Mail. Now we are going to move on to Chapter-by-Chapter. This week we are discussing Chapter 34?

Laura: Si.

Cry Babies

Andrew: Oh, boy. This is a sad chapter. Two cry babies in this panel cried while reading this chapter. I'm not going to say who, though.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Should we reveal?

Laura: It was Micah.

Andrew: Two of the four.

Micah: [laughs] Yeah, it was me.

Andrew: It was Micah.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: As he laughs. [laughs] Well, Matt was crying when we read the chapter just about an hour or two ago.

Laura: Ooooh! Matt!

Andrew: What gets to you about it, Matt?

Matt: It's sad. That's it.

Andrew: Laura?

Laura: Well, I...

Andrew: What really strikes your heart?

Laura: Well, just the whole part where he finally accepted that he had to die, and he was walking so calmly towards the forest and just thinking about all the little little things like, how many heart beats and how many more breaths it'll take and, you know, just asking his parents if it would hurt. I was just like, "No!"

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Yeah, the entire part where his parents come back really got to me, especially when he was talking to his mother when he asked her to stay close to him right before he died.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: That was really sad.

Micah: I wonder if J.K. Rowling had a tough time writing this chapter.

Harry Reflects

Andrew: Well, lucky for you, we are going to be discussing all of that. I've outlined it into today's Chapter-by-Chapter discussion. But we'll start with the beginning of the chapter. The chapter begins with Harry dwelling on his death and, like Laura was saying, how many heart beats he has left, would it hurt, you know, and how appreciative he was of having his body. And it's all of these things you never would think about, unless you know you're going to die. Or I always think about people who are crippled, or permanently handicapped. You know, they see us as being so lucky to be able to just, you know, something simple as walk or reach your arm out to grab something. But here we see Harry being so appreciative of every last breath that he's being able to draw right now. It's really emotional.

Laura: Yeah, and I mean I think that everyone can kind of relate to how he felt. Maybe not on the more personal level of everyone having a near-death experience but say, even if you had someone really close to you who died. I think that in those days, weeks, and months following their death, you come to appreciate what you have so much more. So, it's just kind of like if you have a friend or a close family member pass away.

The Word "Incontrovertible"

Andrew: So a quick light moment here. I want to bring it up because everyone will remember when we saw the Goblet of Fire - or sorry, Order of the Phoenix, I think it was the teaser trailer, when Dumbledore says, "The evidence that the Dark Lord has returned is incontrovertible." And, I know me personally, I was like, "What? Incontrovertible? What? Is that even a word?"

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: And I just thought it was funny because then when you read the chapter, the word's actually in there. I think - who says it? Was it Voldemort? I forget. Oh, J.K. - nobody said it. J.K. Rowling used it. I don't know. I just thought it was funny because like we're, "What's that word?" and then it shows up in Deathly Hallows. Anyone else? Just me?

Micah: It was a good catch. I didn't even notice.

Laura: Well, I never even asked you what that word was, but...

Andrew: Oh, thank you, Micah. What did you say, Laura?

Laura: Nothing.

Andrew: No, what did you say?

Laura: [laughs] No...

Andrew: It was a stab again, wasn't it?

Laura: No, no, no. I was just saying that I wasn't wondering what the word was. I mean...

Andrew: Oh, okay. [laughs]

Laura: Well, I mean, it's like I told you earlier, because we discussed a little bit before the show, and I honestly think that in the movie they use the word because it sounded more like a word Dumbledore would use as opposed to saying, "This evidence is undeniable." It just sounds so much more intelligent and eloquent to say, "incontrovertible." So, it's like, you know...

Matt: And it may be more widely used, you know, in the U.K. more than the U.S.

Micah: Yeah. [laughs]

Matt: We're probably just not familiar with the word as much.

Andrew: That's true.

Micah: I was going to say it sounds better with a British accent than any of us.

Laura: That's true.

Andrew: [in an attempted British accent] "Incontrovertible." Yeah.

Harry's Perspective on Dumbledore

Micah: But I was kind of - what I thought was kind of interesting was on page 692, Harry talks about Dumbledore's betrayal, and it's the first time we really see, from Harry's perspective, that - how he considers what Dumbledore has done to him in a negative way.

Andrew: Yeah. It was kind of sad seeing that, because, I mean, do you guys see it as a betrayal now? I mean I don't.

Laura: Well, I mean, don't we later establish that Dumbledore knew it wasn't really going to kill him? I mean...

Andrew: Does Dumbledore say that? I don't know. I forget.

Laura: I don't remember, but I feel like in the end it turned out that he knew he wasn't going to die. I mean, that's how I feel anyway, but...

Matt: No, yeah. He knew that he wasn't going to die because he knew about Harry being the final Horcrux and everything. He knew that Harry had to die ,but he wasn't initially going to die.

Laura: But, I mean, it does really - it does really throw into question, you know, did - and I know we've had this discussion before, and I actually got a really long email about it, but did Dumbledore really consider Harry's autonomy? Like, I know that, you know, it was for a good cause...

Micah: Yeah.

Laura: ...and I know it needed to happen, but I still think there's a certain amount of respect that one needs to have for a human being, you know? And it's just - it's kind of weird to see Dumbledore acting this way because you've always seen him as someone who regards every creature he's ever encountered with fair and equal rights; House-elves to centaurs. And then here he is basically leading Harry towards his fate, and he's completely blindsided at the last minute. You know what I'm saying? So it's definitely...

Andrew: You bring up an awesome point.

Laura: It's not an easy topic to grasp, you know?

Matt: No, no.

Micah: No.

Andrew: Yeah, no, you're right, though. You're right though. But I think - you know, we've talked about this before, I think Dumbledore was right to not tell Harry, because Harry, being the teenager that he is - granted, he's mature - but he could have just killed himself. Been like, "Oh my God, I have to kill myself anyway? Screw this." Boom bang done.

Micah: I think this is really, though, where Dumbledore's character gets called into question, because while he is somebody who is clearly old enough to have experienced a lot of things during his life, and is far more than willing to die for the greater good, that's a lot of responsibility to thrust upon a child, and Harry still is a child, the way that he did. You guys agree with that, or no?

Andrew: No, I do agree. But at least - but can't you argue that he did everything right, if you're just arguing that? Because he never told Harry that he had to die to kill Voldemort.

Laura: Yeah, I...

Micah: Yeah, but at the same time, I don't think he was certain that Harry was going to live until that whole scene in his office where there was that puff of smoke and he says, "In essence divided." He had no idea that that part of Voldemort's soul was living in Harry until that point. At least that's what I remember; I could be wrong.

Matt: And also that "gleam of triumph" in Goblet of Fire when Voldemort put Harry's blood in him. That that means that Harry is part of Voldemort, and Harry cannot die if part of him is still with Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah. You know, it's a very interesting debate.

Matt: Well, it's a very debatable topic. I don't think we're really going to come to any conclusion with that, because, you know, I think every character is flawed, and I think, you know, he's just human.

Harry Chooses to Tell Neville

Andrew: So Harry decides to tell Neville. While Harry's walking out into the Hogwarts grounds, he sees Neville there on the ground, and he decides to tell Neville the secret that Nagini has to be killed. And then Harry goes and - well, Jo goes into a whole thing about how, you know, it's a new trio that knows that Nagini has to die, then Harry's dwelling on his death more. So I'm wondering, do you think Harry chose Neville for a particular reason, or just because Harry happened to see him outside? I mean, would he have happened to tell anyone? And is it kind of symbolic to choose him, given that Neville also fit the prophecy as being born at the end of July, and all that?

Laura: Yeah, absolutely. I think that it was definitely a defining moment that Jo gave to Neville, because for so often he was kind of seen as comic relief, and that's really exemplified in the movies. They take a lot of creative license with Neville, and they make him seem, very - I don't know, they make him seem very silly and sheepish, and that's sort of the impression you get in the books, but at the same time, the bigger impression I got of Neville in the books was that even though he was somewhat awkward in the beginning, he was always a very loyal and brave person who would do what he needed to do when the occasion called. So, not only was it symbolic, but I don't think Harry would have asked just anyone. I think he asked Neville because he truly trusted him.

Andrew: Quite emotional to see that, too. I mean, this whole chapter was emotional.

Laura: Mhm.

Andrew: But, you know, just how Harry - he said, like, "the new trio" that was going to know this.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I don't know. It was nice.

Matt: Well, he also put in account that there's the possibility that Ron and Hermione will die too.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: When he thought about - when he was telling Neville.

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