MuggleCast 150 Transcript (continued)
Rowling Writing This Chapter
Andrew: Yeah, and he couldn't bear to imagine that, either. But let's continue and move on. Harry is - boy, what a downer he is in this chapter. He's dwelling on his death more, big loser, and he's clinging on to every second. So, like Micah asked earlier - I'm glad he brought it up earlier, what do you think J. K. Rowling did to prepare for writing for this scene? I mean you have to essentially think about what would happen if you - if you knew you were going to die.
Laura: Yeah, I would think that would be the only way that you could prepare for writing a scene like that, you know? It's like - and I think it's - it's the same way that we allow ourselves as readers to react to the scene. I mean, it wouldn't have much effectiveness if we didn't all imagine being in that scenario. Like, I mean, have you ever been in a situation where you could have been, like, a car accident maybe, you know? Where you're driving down the road and all of a sudden someone switches into your lane, and they're about to hit you head on, and it's like...
Laura: ...it goes utterly fast, but at the same time it moves in slow motion. And I think that's kind of the way that we can relate to it, so...
Micah: I think it's also possible that she may have drawn on a lot of her own experiences from the troubled times that she had in her life and a lot of the - I guess emotions and feelings that she had herself, and, you know, she mentioned numerous times the kind of hardships that she went through, that she herself contemplated suicide at one point, so it's possible that those things were used in the scene.
Andrew: I mean, you know, and J. K. Rowling said she was crying while writing the end of this book and, you have to imagine, I mean, if you're trying to think about how you - how - what you would be thinking if you knew you were going to die, I mean, she may be crying while, you know, thinking about all this. I can't imagine writing this whole chapter on my own, composing all of this. It's amazing.
Laura: Yeah, it must have taken her a long time I would think, you know? It's not the kind of thing you sit down and do in one sitting.
Andrew: Yeah, like, you know, after enjoying a funny T.V. show or something, after catching the latest "Extras" with Ricky Jarvis, she comes in and writes a depressing chapter as that one.
[Laura and Micah laugh]
The Snitch Opens
Andrew: So, and then of course while dwelling, Harry finally realizes that, "I open at the cl..." - he - he makes the connection to how, once you connect, once you grab the Snitch, it's all over, and like, you know, now once Voldemort kills him it's all over. And he realizes that "I open at the close" means it'll open at his death, so he looks at the Snitch and he says "I am going to die," and that's when the Snitch finally opens up and, you know, it was really cool to realize what the riddle actually meant, but I have to wonder, what if he said this, you know, a few months ago? If he figured it out? Someone suggested it to him, and he actually did say, "I am going to die," or do you think he would have been smart enough to say, "Okay, there's no way I'm saying that because whatever I need, I'm going to need it if I ever die"?
Laura: Well, first of all, I think that - I think that there was some sort of magic within it that he had to actually know he was about to die. You couldn't just say, "I'm going to die" because, well, everyone is going to die, so of course that's true. But I think there needs to be a sense of immediacy with which you say it, you know?
Andrew: Yeah. No, I agree. So you think it listens to his voice with a passion and...
Laura: Well, I don't know that it listens to his voice but, I mean, can a Snitch listen?
Andrew: Well, if it can hear you say, "I open at the close," then...
Laura: I almost - I don't know, I associate it more with like, the internal realization, not so much how you vocalize it.
Andrew: Yeah, but it's just like how does the Snitch still open up though?
Micah: But doesn't it respond strictly to flesh? Or isn't it composed of flesh? I...
Laura: The Snitch?
Andrew: The Snitch?
Micah: Well, there's that whole conversation that takes place at the Burrow between Ron and Hermione and Harry, and Harry realizes that Snitches have flesh memories, and remember, he puts it in his mouth.
Laura: Yeah, in the first book.
Micah: Because he thinks that's how it'll open, 'cause thats how it opened - that's how he caught it in the first Quidditch match.
Micah: So I would think that there would have to be some sort of genuine emotion associated with, you know, the words that he's saying, that he's about to die, and that the Snitch would respond to it. If he'd just figured this out a couple months ago and said hey, I'm going to try this out and see what happens, you know, and there was no real emotion behind it, it may not have recognized it from Harry and decided to actually open.
Andrew: Yeah, I think you're right.
Laura: Yeah, I think so too.
The Resurrection Stone
Andrew: All right, well, let's move - continue to move along. So the Snitch opens up and within it is the Resurrection Stone. And I'm still a little confused about how this all works personally, but I'll just pretend like I know. So he turns it over three times, and Sirius, James, Lily, and Lupin appear. Now, was Harry thinking of those four as he turned it over, or what? Why was it those four that appeared?
Laura: You know, I really don't know. I - you know, there's been a lot of debate about whether or not the Resurrection Stone actually brings people back or whether or not you're actually speaking to those people.
Laura: Have we ever really gotten a clear cut answer on that? Because the way that I viewed it was almost kind of like when Harry saw his parents in Goblet of Fire. It wasn't really them, it was like Dumbledore said, shadows of their spirits, you know?
Andrew: Yeah, because I was just wondering what, you know - 'cause why didn't Cedric show up? But I have more questions. So...
Laura: Why didn't Dumbledore show up? That's what I think is weird.
Andrew: Yeah, that too!
Laura: You would think that more than anyone, that would be who Harry would want to see at that point because - but it's almost like it goes hand in hand with the fact that Harry seems resigned to the fact, regardless of whether or not it was right or wrong, whether or not Dumbledore respected him as a person or not, he seems to have completely accepted the position that Dumbledore has put him in.
Laura: And so it's like he doesn't even care to see Dumbledore.
Andrew: He would definitely want to see talk to him - or talk to him at this time, or I would think Dumbledore would somehow want to appear there.
Laura: It's almost like Harry - it's so weird that Dumbledore is not there, I can't really describe it, but he's been at every other major turning point, and yet here he's not present.
Micah: To be honest with you...
Andrew: And all Dumbledore would have to do is say, "look, you're not going to die." But I guess Harry had to know that he was going to die because that's what ultimately defeated Voldemort, wasn't it?
Micah: The one thing I was going to say is that I don't know that Harry would want to see Dumbledore at that point in time. I mean, if I were Harry I'd be pretty pissed off at him, to be honest with you.
Micah: I mean, he essentially raised Harry over the last, you know, seven years of his life to die, for all Harry knows, and had absolutely, as far as we know right now, remorse about it.
Laura: Yeah. Well, what I find interesting about it is that at every other point that Dumbledore has done something questionable to Harry, Harry has always been desperate to question him. Even after he died, like he would constantly - he held on to this hope that he would see Dumbledore in the mirror. He kept seeing the blue eye and hoping that it was Dumbledore. And it's like at this point, Harry has completely let go of that need. He's let go of that connection, and I think in this point, he is actually truly grown up and become a man.
Micah: Plus, I think Dumbledore was only contracted for King's Cross.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Yeah, well, I was going to say, because if Dumbledore showed up here, then there wouldn't be any awesome scene at King's Cross, so, I mean...
Laura: Yeah, that's true.
Andrew: Could it be as cheesy of an answer that J.K. Rowling was just saving him for the next chapter? [laughs]
Laura: Well, it's also the fact that even at the end of the next chapter - I don't want to get too far ahead - but it's basically confirmed that Dumbledore wasn't really there, that it was just a dream.
Laura: That Harry's mind was inventing it, so I really think that it's another - and we know that Jo has always been very straightforward when it comes to death in this series, and she's very against the idea of leading people into the idea that you can come back after you die. And I really think it was another way of Jo putting that distance there to show people, you know, when you die, it's over, you know, regardless of whether or not there's an afterlife, you don't return to this one.
Micah: But he was in limbo, wasn't he?
Laura: Who? Harry?
Micah: I mean, more or less. Or we'll discuss that next week.
Laura: ...but I'm talking about Dumbledore, specifically.
Comparing Death Scene to Chronicles of Narnia
Andrew: All right, well, we got an email here. Maybe this will get you back into it. We got an email here from someone that I thought we should bring up, because I'm pretty sure this occurs in Chronicles of Narnia, the movie, so I've seen this. It comes from Nick, 15 of Newcastle, Delaware. He writes:
"When I was reading Chapter 34 of 'Deathly Hallows,' 'The Forest,' again I noticed several occurrences throughout the chapter that reminded me of events that took place during C.S. Lewis's novel 'The Chronicles of Narnia.'"
The first one.
"First off, when Harry realizes that he must die to ensure the safety of everyone in the castle, this is similar to Aslan sacrificing himself to save the life of Edmund Pev...Pevensie? And second..."
Laura: Pevensie, yeah.
Andrew: Pevense? Okay. "Second, Harry..."
Andrew: "...chooses to bring back his parents, Lupin, and Sirius for comfort while walking through the forest to his death. This is again similar to Aslan allowing Lucy and Susan Pevenense...Pevense to walk with him towards his death. And eventually, both the Pevense girls and Harry's escorts leave before hey enter their death scenes."
WTF? Laura, you got any ideas about this? Have you read Chronicles of Narnia?
Laura: Yeah, yeah. Mhm. And the similarities are definitely there. I mean, we know that J.K. Rowling has taken some cues from other fantasy novels, and I don't think it would be unlike her to - I wouldn't say borrow, but I mean to be inspired because, I mean, Narnia is obviously fantastic, but what's very interesting about this, I think, is that Narnia has large religious references, I mean, we're talking huge parallels. [laughs]
Laura: And it's just interesting because you see a lot of people going on about how Harry Potter is demonic, and you have people like Laura Mallory who think that it's satanistic...
Laura: ...but there are really so many Biblical parallels in Harry Potter it's - it's really quite ridiculous. I mean, just - we had the Biblical verses a few weeks ago on the show...
Laura: ...that were on Ariana and Lily and James's tombstones.
Andrew: Right. Yeah.
Micah: And what's even more interesting is that with C.S. Lewis, if you read that entire series, that Narnia isn't even what it appears to be. I won't - has anybody actually read he series or no?
Micah: Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to give it away, but it's kind of similar to what Harry goes through.
Micah: What happens in the final battle.
Micah: Or after the final battle. In...
Andrew: I mean, its such a beautiful way to do it, to, you know, to escort the main character, or one of the main characters, to their death. It's, you know - Harry walks through the forest and he sees Yaxley and Dololov?
Harry Reveals Himself to Voldemort
Andrew: Dolohov. So he follows them back to where Voldemort is camped out, and of course, Voldemort is there with all the Death Eaters and Lucius is looking worse than ever, and they tell Voldemort that he wasn't there. Voldemort says, "I was, it seems, mistaken." And Harry, in what will be probably one of the coolest parts of the movie says, "You weren't." And J.K. Rowling describes Harry as saying it with such passion and trying to say it as loud as possible to make sure everyone heard him. It's really cool, I thought.
Andrew: I mean, how exciting is that going to be? To see Harry ready kick some Voldie ass.
Laura: I think that whole scene's going to be great. But I'm just looking forward to seeing the look on Voldemort's face. You know?
Laura: When Harry steps out and says, "you weren't."
Andrew: Yeah, yeah. What do you think Voldemort would have done if he didn't come to him? Because the Death Eaters, like, we know what he threaten, but the Death Eaters looked so scared. Like Voldemort, do you think he would have killed some more Death Eaters just out of fury before he went to get Harry?
Laura: Yeah, I can see him whipping his wand, you know, in anger and killing about five or six of those Death Eaters. Why not, you know?
Andrew: Yeah, exactly, sure.
Laura: He's ruthless.
Andrew: So, and then Voldemort sends the green spell, and everything was gone. Or was it?! That's for next week's show.
Laura: Dun dun dun.
Andrew: You know, speaking of that...
Laura: And so that concludes the weekly MuggleCast episode's Chapter-By-Chapter is now over. Harry died. The end.
Did The Casters Think Harry Was Dead?
Andrew: Awww. Oh yeah, I was going to ask you guys about this.
Andrew: I didn't put - I didn't put - did you think, did you think Harry was dead at this point? Laura, were you crying some more? I cant remember, you were crying so much, it's all a blur to me.
Laura: [laughs] Well, I didn't know what to think.
Laura: I was just - just the fact that she actually wrote it, to make you think, "oh my god, he's dead." The whole chapter was so emotional in it of itself. And in my defense, okay, we've been reading the book for twenty-four hours, we hadn't slept, we hadn't eaten, I was tired!
Andrew: But you still cried. I mean, we were all tired and you cried. No, it's okay.
Laura: Jamie cried!
Andrew: No. Jamie cried when the book was released.
Laura: Yeah, I know.
Andrew: That was different. He had some alcohol in him too.
Laura: How is that different?
Andrew: Which is legal over there, by the way. So, I don't know. Micah, did you think he was going to die?
Micah: Right there? There was too much of the book left. [laughs] And that's kind of a stupid reason ,but...
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: There was.
Andrew: No there wasn't!
Micah: Well, there was enough. And...
Andrew: There was enough.
Micah: ...part of what kind of made me think that it wasn't over was, yeah, I know that there was that jet of green light and everything was gone, but there wasn't the finality of Avada Kerdavra to it. Every other time that we've seen at least in the series that somebody has died that that curse has been used, and the curse it self - the words weren't used, and to me, that made me think that for some reason it wasn't over. You know, I had to see those words on the page...
Micah: ...in order to believe that he was actually dead. So, I mean, who knew?
Andrew: Wow. But, I mean, just that alone made you that confident? I mean, you're just saying that now in hind sight to make you look really smart.
Micah: No, it was that and the fact that there was a lot of story left. No, I didn't think he was going to die.
There was too much left to go through. I don't know, I just - I was convinced that he wasn't going to die. And yeah, that thing about the Avada Kedavra just made up when I read it this time, but I noticed it. It wasn't there.
Andrew: Matt, do you think he was a goner?
Matt: No, I didn't think he died when I read it. I kind of agree with Micah. There was just too much story left. And also, with all the other characters, J.K. Rowling actually stated that that character was dead or was gone, and at the end of this chapter we don't really know anything. We just know that after the green light, there was nothing there.
Andrew: All right, well, there you go. That does conclude Chapter-by...
Micah: What did you think? Did you think he was dead?
Andrew: You know, I don't know what I thought.
Micah: Did you think he was dead?
Andrew: I can't remember. I can't remember. I was too preoccupied watching Laura crying.
Laura: [sighs] Yeah, I remember that.
Laura: We actually - you, me, and Jamie were sitting on that bed and you had the freaking camera facing us, and I'm crying, and I'm looking the other way like "Oh God..."
Andrew: What camera?
Laura: "...don't let this be broadcasting over the Internet." The laptop.
Andrew: Oh, that camera, the live stream. Oh, okay.
Laura: Yeah, the live stream. And I'm like looking the other way like, "I don't want anyone to see me crying."
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Laura: I hate you.
Micah: All you had to do was look at the next page.
Laura: Well, I did!
Andrew: Well, no.
Andrew: But, okay, he could have still died and, you know, with some extreme magic, like - or Harry just like - or J.K. Rowling just describing Heaven or something now. [laughs] She's gone really overboard.
Micah: But Voldemort was still alive. The bad guy was not going to win in this story.
Laura: Well, no. I didn't think...
Micah: That's part of...
Laura: I didn't think he was going too, but it was -regardless of the fact - I didn't really know what I thought. I didn't know. I was so - I was emotional. I was tired, and I wanted to finish the freakin' book. But that chapter was so emotional.
Micah: Right, but... [laughs]
Laura: You can't blame me for crying. Just 'cause I cried didn't mean that I thought Harry was dead.
Micah: No, I'm not blaming you for that. I'm not blaming you for that. I just make fun of you for it, but I'm not blaming you for it.
Laura: You're an ass.
Andrew: Well, let's move on.
Micah: I know I am, but only Harry could kill Voldemort. Voldemort wasn't dead, therefore Harry wasn't dead. That was my rationale.
Andrew: Okay, well, okay, whatever.
Micah: Let's move on.
Andrew: We can go on with this for much longer, but - all right. Let's do it.
[Quote Quiz intro plays]
Andrew: You know, I just realized this whole chapter is just Harry and Dumbledore, so....
Laura: You have a 50-50 chance of getting it right.
Andrew: I will give you a sentence anyway.
Laura: Are you serious?
Andrew: Yeah. Who said it? Who said it? You just can't. I'm sorry. There's no Quote Quiz this week.
Laura: Just pick some narration, that'll drive them crazy. Pick something that's not a quote. [laughs]
Andrew: I can't, because I was just looking at some quotes and there's not one sentence you can't tell which person. It's too easy. So that's how we play...
[Quote Quiz intro plays]
Favorite Moments from Past Shows
Andrew: Well, it is our 150th episode, as we were reminding everyone, and we're going to play now some clips highlighting the best of MuggleCast. All right, so this is sort of going to be our favorite segment this week. We're going to play a few clips from the show highlighting the best of MuggleCast as a little tribute.
Clip 1: Jamie and Ben Plan a Wedding
Andrew: This first clip comes from Episode 36. It comes from Elysa.
Laura: I think that saying that there is one wand for one wizard is like saying there is one person you can be friends with, or one person you can fall in love with in the whole world. And I just - I don't think that's true. I think that there are different wands that can suit you and it also can depend on how you've grown as a person. It might change later.
Jamie: Well, I only love Ben.
Ben: Using the love analogy...
Ben: ...you know, you can like have people that you maybe you fall in love with and stuff, but maybe there's only one true love. Maybe there's only one wand...
Jamie: You, Ben, for me.
Jamie: I love you, Ben. Actually, Ben, Ben, this is a perfect moment for this. I've been meaning to ask you this for a - for a while now. I'm afraid I can't get down on one knee, but...
[Laura keeps laughing]
Jamie: Ben Carlisle Shane...
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Eric: Carlo. His middle name is Carlo.
Jamie: Will you marry me?
Laura: Can I be the flower girl?
Ben: Of course, Jamie.
Jamie: Oh yes! Yes, definitely, definitely.
Eric: Can I be the best man?
Jamie: Eric, you are doing the speech. Eric, you are not doing the speech.
Ben: Yeah, you're definitely not.
Andrew: Laura, I just...
Andrew: ...I think the best part of that clip is you just saying, "Can I be the flower girl?" So innocent, perfect timing.
[Laura and Andrew laugh]
Andrew: Good times.
Laura: Awww, good times, good times.
Clip 2: Hagrid's on the Show
Andrew: Well, the next clip was sent in by quite a few people. This was Episode 73.
Andrew: Hold on, let me - it's a long number. He lives in England, actually. Stupid U.K. numbers. Okay.
Ben: [impersonating Hagrid] Hello?
Andrew: Hi, yeah, Hagrid.
Ben: Rubeus Hagrid.
Andrew: Hagrid, Rubeus Hagrid, welcome to the show! Thank you so much for joining us today.
Ben: Ah, you're welcome, I was just flying my motorcycle.
Andrew: And, well, thank you for taking out the time to do this with us today. I mean this is a big honor. I know our fans have been very excited to see you on the show, and we weren't kidding when we said this is the biggest guest to ever appear on a Harry Potter podcast. So thanks for coming on today.
Ben: You're welcome.
Andrew: So, of course, that's a very long interview, but [laughs] that's just so funny, because...
Andrew: ...we hyped it up for a couple of weeks. We we're saying...
Laura: And people were mad.
Andrew: Yeah. We were saying we are going to have...
Laura: People were kind of upset about that.
Andrew: ...the biggest guest ever. And of course we meant...
Andrew: We meant big, as in physical size, and so many people were upset. "Oh you guys should have - you guys shouldn't have hyped it up. You should have just hyped one week prior." Like all this stuff.
Micah: A lot of people, though, liked it. They thought it was really funny.
Micah: People who actually have a sense of humor.
Laura: It was really funny.
Andrew: Yeah, they were either on one side of the spectrum or another. Either you loved it or you hated us for hyping it up. And you secretly loved it also.
Laura: Kind of like our April Fool's jokes.
Andrew: Some people - who was it? Someone actually told me they thought we actually got Robbie Coltrane to - to do that for us.
Laura: Oh really!
Andrew: I can't remember who told me that, but someone did. I was thinking, "What? Really?" [laughs] I mean, you know, it's kind of obvious when Ben just happens to leave right there. Our acting was awesome though.
Laura: Yeah. [laughs]
Clip 3: Voldemort's Diary
Andrew: But all right, here's another clip. This is from Episode 82 from Austin.
Micah: Well I - you know, I've always wandered, is it possible Voldemort entrusted information about Horcruxes to different Death Eaters. So not all of them knew, necessarily, about all of them, but - but individually some of them knew.
Laura: I think...
Jamie: I don't think he'd tell them anything. It's just he - he doesn't take risks. It's pointless.
Micah: How would [unintelligible] known about...
Jamie: It weakens himself.
Micah: ...this in the first place?
Jamie: Well, there's always a way of finding out. Perhaps he, you know, used Legillimency.
Laura: He read his diary.
Jamie: Yeah, he read his diary.
Micah: Maybe he witnessed the killing. That's a possibility.
Jamie: "Dearest diary, today I killed someone and split my soul."
Laura: Yeah. [laughs]
Jamie: "Have a good day. From Voldemort."
Jamie: That must be a distressing diary to read. Just think of the stuff he's done. "Went to kill a young boy. Backfired. Damn. From Voldemort."
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Jamie: "Don't worry, killed his parents."
Andrew: Funny memories.
Matt: Just listening to those clips, you know, I miss Jamie and Ben.
Micah: That was a weird choice
Andrew: [laughs] That was a weird choice you said, Micah?
Micah: ...that was a weird choice. I don't know, I don't know.
Andrew: I mean it wasn't hilarious, but it was funny I thought. Yeah.
Micah: No, it was funny, it was just kind of random.
Andrew: Yeah, well, some people, you know, some of these things just stick...
Laura: You know, it's actually kind of nice hearing these things that we haven't, you know, I don't know - because I feel like there are some people who send in the same clips over and over...
Laura: ...and some stuff gets overused, but it's nice to hear this other stuff.
Clip 4: Eric Has Laura's Pants
Andrew: Yeah. Well, you know, speaking of that, we're going in order here of episodes. Speaking of that, this one from Episode 97 was, I guess you could say, one of the classics.
Eric: Laura, Laura, Laura, I gave your pants back, right? Did you get them?
Laura: Oh my god.
Jamie: Nice, Eric.
Laura: No, we have to cut that out.
Eric: Did you get your pants back?
Laura: I did get them.
Eric: Thank you!
Andrew: Laura wants to cut it out because it's true, that's the funny part. Laura could have just played it off.
Laura: No it's not!
Jamie: Were they suitably washed?
Eric: No, look. It's a perfectly good explanation, okay? It was just in Los Angeles. She left a few hours before me, and she packed everything except one pair of pants, and I said, "Oh, that's Laura's, I think I should take it with me and I'll mail it back to her when I get home."
Andrew: Eight months after the fact... [laughs]
Eric: Eight months later, I did, yeah.
Laura: [laughs] And I didn't get it until, like, right before you left for New Zealand, but whatever.
Andrew: All right, that's a little weird, Eric.
Eric: Better late than never.
Jamie: ...we should tell the story of when you found my underwear in your sister's room, and I don't know how it got there, seriously, so...
Jamie: I seriously have no idea how it got there.
Andrew: We've moved on from that. I don't want to think about that.
Jamie: Andrew, you're mom must have sorted them accidently because, I swear, I didn't do anything untoward.
Andrew: It probably was my mom made the mistake, but - 'cause your underwear is girly underwear, so she probably thought "Oh, it's Becca's."
Jamie: Yes, it's completely - I wear knickers.
Andrew: What are knickers? What are knickers?
Andrew: I still haven't found out what knickers are.
Laura: They're underwear.
Andrew: Girl underwear?
Micah: Old ladies'...
Micah: Old ladies'...
Andrew: I didn't know that. Micah, you - wow, Micah, you really jumped on that. Do you know something we don't?
Andrew: Something you want to tell us?
Micah: That old women wear knickers?
Andrew: Yeah, that was funny though, 'cause Eric said it so out of the blue, you know, it just came out of no where.
Laura: Oh, I know. I remember hearing that and I was like, "Oh God," like seriously. And you want to know the worst part? You named that episode "Laura's Pants." And...
Laura: ...my mom - when I was in England with you guys, my mom went over to visit my aunt and uncle, and she was telling them all about MuggleCast, and so they went online and looked at it and they saw one of the most recent episodes, and they go to my mom and they're like, "Why is this called 'Laura's Pants'?"
Laura: And she was like, "Uh, I don't know!"
Laura: So I'm like thinking, "Oh God, my family thinks these terrible things of me." Thank you, Eric, thank you!
Andrew: Aw, that's unfortunate timing; that's unfortunate timing.
Laura: I know.
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