Andrew: Let's move on to Chapter-by-Chapter this week. We're talking about the penultimate chapter. You guys like that word? Penultimate?
Laura: Very nice, very nice.
Andrew: I know my English. Yeah, thank you.
Matt: Yeah, that's pretty good.
Andrew: And no, the Epilogue doesn't count as a chapter so don't e-mail me and be like, [in a high pitched voice] "It's not the penultimate. That means second to last." Anyway...
Laura: Well, hey, Andrew, I think it's incontrovertible that you, you know...
Laura: ...you know all these great words. I'm so proud of your vocabulary.
Andrew: I still don't know what that means, but...
Matt: He has a list on his desktop right now.
Andrew: You know what I do? And I'll admit this, I'm not afraid to.
Laura: You pull up Dashboard?
Andrew: Well, no, close. Yeah, that's a good idea. But also, like if someone says a word on the podcast or something, or IM, I'll go to Google and I'll type in define, colon, and then the word, and it gives you a definition.
Laura: That's cool.
Matt: [laughs] What a loser.
Micah: Those Google people.
Andrew: What? That's a little trick I learned.
Matt: No, I'm just kidding.
Andrew: That's a little trick I learned. Anyway...
Micah: Those Google people are so smart.
Andrew: Yeah, they are. Isn't that cool, Micah?
Micah: It's cool.
Andrew: You're all going to start using it now. Google's...
Micah: Here, Google.com. Define, colon, goat.
Micah: "Any of numerous agile ruminants related to sheep but having a beard and straight horns."
Andrew: Thank you for that. Wow.
Andrew: And see, Micah? You say you're tired of that goat talk, but you fuel it with things like that.
Micah: Well, Matt started it this week, so...
Matt: No, no, no.
Andrew: Your comment just fueled it for another three months. Guaranteed.
Micah: All right.
Andrew: [laughs] Anyway, Chapter-by-Chapter this week, Chapter 35, "King's Cross." This is the chapter that I couldn't do Quote Quiz for last week because it's just Harry and Dumbledore the whole time. I mean, what can you do? Anyway, this is the big chapter where Harry speaks with Dumbledore again. It's a very moving chapter. Dumbledore talks a lot, basically explaining to Harry, you know, everything. You know, remember in Book 5 how he said, "Sit down, Harry. I'm going to tell you everything"? Yeah. He didn't really.
Laura: Yeah. That was a lie.
Andrew: Yeah, that was a big lie. Book 7's like the third time he's said, "I'm going to tell you everything."
Andrew: Like, if there was an eighth book he would give him a whole other story that's crucial.
Laura: [laughs] Although I have to say, one of the things that's great about this is it is different in that respect, because...
Andrew: You're right.
Laura: ...Dumbledore doesn't really tell Harry anything. Harry just realizes he already knew.
Andrew: So chapter starts up with Harry waking up and realizing he's alive, and he also realizes he's [whispers] naked. Again. "He was not perfectly sure he was there himself." That's a quote from the book. Matt, what did you say before the show started?
Matt: I want to know why Jo is so keen on getting Harry naked so much in this book.
Andrew: Well, this is only the second time, right?
Matt: Well, yeah, but it's - well, the only other time Harry's been naked was in the prefects' bathroom in Goblet of Fire.
Matt: But - I don't know, I just...
Andrew: Well, I present...
Laura: I think she just added it subliminally after Equus. Yeah.
Matt: Do you think Equus has anything to do with it?
Andrew: Oh, ha-ha, guys. You took my joke. Obviously.
Matt: Ha-ha-ha. You're so predictable.
Andrew: I believe it, though. But he's not really going to be naked in the film, so...
Matt: He's not?
Andrew: Right? I don't think so. Would he? No.
Laura: Well, they would make it look like he was naked.
Andrew: You think so?
Laura: Yeah. They made it look like...
Laura: ...he was naked in Goblet of Fire.
Andrew: Yeah, but he was in a tub. I mean it was written that way, where he was in a tub.
Laura: Yeah, but, no, what they'll do is they'll just shoot it so that you can see like his chest upward or something.
Andrew: [fan-girl squeals] Ah, his chest! That does it for me.
Laura: [laughs] I bet it does.
Andrew: [laughs] Voldemort is there in the background, but it's the Horcrux version of Voldemort. And he's crying in the background. At first he didn't really - Harry didn't know what it was at first, but then he realizes what it is. I guess there's not really much to talk about with this, but we do have to talk about it, or else people are going to complain. What does this - a lot of people e-mailed in saying, "What does that represent?" And it's pretty clear that it's Voldemort's Horcrux. It represents his Horcrux, correct?
Laura: Yeah, I would think so.
Matt: How come Harry got the emo Horcrux, though? I mean why is the Horcrux crying?
Andrew: Because he's dying. Right?
Laura: Well, I think - what's really interesting about this quote-unquote "King's Cross" location is it seems to restore people to - or things, in that creature's case - to what they naturally are without any sort of social pretense, you know? For instance, normally Harry has to wear glasses to correct his vision, yet here he's not wearing them, and he can see clearly. He's not cut or injured, so you can see him as he truly is. And I think here we get to see Voldemort as he truly is...
Laura: ...and it's a really interesting contrast because we're always used to seeing him as this huge, threatening, cloaked figure, and yet here he is defenseless and - and repulsive. Almost pathetic.
Andrew: Yeah. That's a really good point.
Micah: One of the things I wanted to bring up was it said in the chapter that he wanted to comfort this thing, although it repulsed him. And I just thought that kind of showed the type of person that Harry is, the type of character that he is throughout the entire series, that no matter what the situation, he always has this thing about him that he has to go and try and - he's got a saving thing about him, even when it comes to something as decrepit and disgusting as this part of Voldemort's soul that's, you know, cowering in the corner.
Andrew: Right. So this entire scene is taking place between Harry and Dumbledore at King's Cross Station, and at first Harry doesn't know where it is, and then he says to Dumbledore, "Is this King's Cross?" And Dumbledore says something like, "Oh my, is it really?" Like, complete sarcasm. How cool is the symbolism here? Essentially what it's saying is, well, the symbolism is that Harry can either take the train and die, or not take the train and go back to Hogwarts somehow. Well, I guess - what does it say at the end of the thing? I forget what actually happens.
Micah: Doesn't Dumbledore tell him, "This is, as they say, your party"?
Andrew and Laura: Yeah.
Laura: I'm trying to find...
Andrew: And this is also all happening in his head.
Laura: Hang on, let me - I know what you're talking about, Andrew, let me find it.
Matt: See, this reminds me of a Gladys Knight song saying "Take the midnight train to Georgia."
Matt: You can take the midnight train...
Micah: To Laura's house?
Matt: ...to Georgia.
Laura: Oh, God. Here, I found the quote. It's - Harry says, "I've got to go back, haven't I?" And then Dumbledore says, "That is up to you," and Harry asks him if he has a choice. And then Dumbledore says, "Oh yes. We are in King's Cross, you say? I think that if you decided not to go back you would be able to, let's say, board a train."
Andrew: So, yeah, it's very symbolic. It's so cool, I love it.
Andrew: Are there any other places in the Wizarding World that could have been representative of a choice between moving on or staying alive?
Matt: "Ha, ha, ha, ha, stayin' alive!"
Andrew: [singing] "Ah, ah, ah, ah, taking the train, taking the train! Stay alive!" Okay, that's all.
Laura: I don't know, I mean the whole concept of using any kind of mode of transportation in kind of a limbo between a life and death scene is actually fairly common. It happens on most T.V. shows at one point or another, and I'm sure it's in tons of other books, so really, I think it's one of the best ways to represent it. I think what makes it really cool is just that it takes place at a location that has become so familiar to us throughout the books, because we've seen it in every book, you know? So...
Laura: That's what really gives it an interesting twist I think.
Micah: And it's also one of the - the main entry points that we've seen throughout the series between, you know, the Muggle world and the Wizarding World and, you know, it's really - other than going in the first book to Diagon Alley, you know, sort of having to go through at King's Cross station is one of Harry's first entrances into the Wizarding World. So I thought that was kind of interesting. You know, obviously there's a lot of religious parallels here as well. I don't know if we're going to talk about those or not.
Andrew: Well, like what? What are you talking about? In this scene - in this exact - this topic, or elsewhere you mean?
Micah: Well, I think there are some. I mean, how it was sort of a domed top to the station, and, I don't know, I just thought there was a lot of religious symbolism there. Could it possibly be like a church or any other religious place of worship?
Andrew: Yeah, well...
Laura: Well - and that's a good point, too, because you often hear stories of people talking about near death experiences, and a lot of these always seem to claim that, you know, "I saw a white light and then someone said it's not my time yet," or someone said, "you need to go back." You know. Which is somewhat what happens here, except Harry is actually given the choice.
Matt: Well, what about instead of King's Cross, I think another place that would've been relevant would be the Veil place.
Matt: Because we all thought that there was going to be another time we'd get to see the Veil.
Matt: We keep taking about how Sirius quote/unquote "died" when he went over the Veil.
Matt: I mean, couldn't like Harry and Dumbledore be talking with the Veil in front of them, and if he decides to die he would just walk through it?
Matt: Or he could hear, like, his parents' voices on the other side?
Laura: I guess the reason this was chosen is it provides the perfect state of limbo. He's neither alive nor dead, whereas with the Veil, if you're outside of it you're alive and if you're inside of it you're dead.
Matt: I don't really see the train symbolism but I know what you're talking about.
Matt: Like the train is just - it goes one way.
Laura: Well, I guess it's sort of that neither here nor there idea, for instance.
Matt: Yeah, that's what a train station is.
Matt: Is you're kind of just, you know, just stagnant until you reach - until you pick up the train to your destination.
Andrew: I wonder if Jo could have taken it a step further and just had it set right in front of Platform 9 3/4. You know, whether - you know, like right outside of it, 'cause that's exactly where Harry first entered the magical world, when he went through the pillar. And I think it would have been kind of cool whether he was right outside of the pillar, you know, like as if he was about to go in to Platform 9 3/4, or he's right there at the wall that takes them out. And that would be kind of cool.
Matt: Well, who knows? They may actually put that in the movie instead.
Andrew: I bet they will.
Laura: But, you know...
Matt: Yeah, they may. Yeah, you never know.
Laura: Well, what I think the point of this was, and I think Micah touched on it briefly a second ago talking about religious symbolism, is the location's very ambiguous, because when Harry mentions to Dumbledore he thinks it's King's Cross, Dumbledore kind of laughs and he's like, "Really? Is it?" And so it's sort of like, you know, in the eye of the beholder. You know, maybe Harry goes there and sees King's Cross but then maybe someone else goes there and sees a church.
Micah: The name itself, King's Cross, is kind of symbolic in terms of religion also.
Laura: Oh, yeah.
Micah: I mean I don't know that - I don't know the history behind the actual station, but, you know, just kind of calling the chapter "King's Cross" is a little - you know, I think that there's some religious aspect to that. You know, referring to the cross and such.
Andrew: Sure. And just a cross could be also interpreted a cross in the road.
Andrew: You know. Fork in the road. You know? So many ways to interpret this, it's like art.
[Laura and Matt laugh]
Andrew: It's like Picasso.
Micah: Well, that's exactly - that's a great point you actually just brought up.
Micah: It's a crossroads for Harry. I mean...
Micah: ...what better place than a place of transportation, I guess.
Andrew: Yeah. Well, exactly, I mean that's what we've been talking about. Yeah.
Matt: Does everybody buy Dumbledore's full story to Harry? I mean, does anyone still believe that he's an ass for setting up Harry as a pig for slaughter? And the reason why I ask this is because, when Dumbledore explains to Harry, he apologizes to him. What do you guys think? Any thoughts?
Laura: I'm not sure we were intended to entirely think that Dumbledore was right, though.
Matt: But why is it when - at the end of every book when Dumbledore tells him the story he always says, "I'm sorry, Harry, I should've told you," or "I'm sorry, Harry, the fault is mine."
Andrew: [laughs] That's kind of true.
Laura: Because he's a flawed character.
Andrew: Yeah, but...
Matt: But does he constantly - I mean I kind of wish that Harry goes, "Yeah, I know, this is what you've been telling me. This isn't news to me that it's your fault."
Laura: [laughs] Well...
Andrew: I was always taught as a child that "sorry" meant you won't do it again.
Matt: Love means never having to say you're sorry.
Andrew: Anyway, go ahead, Laura. Sorry.
[Andrew and Matt laugh]
Laura: I kind of lost my train of thought.
Andrew: Oh, sorry.
Matt: Did you take the wrong train?
[Everyone laughs sarcastically]
Laura: I hope not!
Micah: What was interesting about this part was Dumbledore's almost egging Harry on, you know. Dumbledore's not really the one that's telling the story. Harry has to keep coming up with all the answers, which is a little bit different than what we're used to, you know. It's like you're reading through this chapter and Dumbledore just keeps smiling at Harry like, "Yeah, come one. Yeah, and then what happened?"
Micah: And then, "what does that mean?"
Micah: It was just a little weird. And...
Andrew: But then again - sorry. Go ahead.
Micah: Well, no, you mentioned that Dumbledore apologizes setting Harry up, but...
Micah: ...it seems almost that he knew, and - or at least he guessed that Harry was going to, in the end, be okay. And he even goes on to say, you know, my guesses are usually correct, and it's just, if he guessed wrong, they wouldn't be having this conversation right now and...
Andrew: You're right. You're right.
Micah: ...the book would've ended, so...
Andrew: But this whole time we're talking about this, I guess - we also have to remember, again, that this isn't actually Dumbledore, so should we see it as Dumbledore saying all this because it's - like Laura said, it's happening in Harry's head. So how do we interpret this?
Laura: I think we interpret it, and we touched on this a little bit last week when we were talking about why Dumbledore didn't appear when Harry used the Resurrection Stone, and I think it's because Harry doesn't need him anymore. Not that he wouldn't love for him to be alive, but Harry doesn't really need that guidance anymore because Dumbledore even said that he was a wonderful man and that he was also a better man than Dumbledore was.
Micah: And I would argue that it is Dumbledore just for the sheer fact of the quote that you put in at the end, Andrew. You mentioned that it's happening inside Harry's head, but look at what Dumbledore says to him.
Andrew: "But why on earth should that mean that it is not real." It's such a nice line.
Micah: So who's to say that it's really not him?
Laura: Well, it leaves so much open for interpretation, you know?
Andrew: And that's the very last line we ever hear from Dumbledore, isn't it?
Laura: Aww, that's so heart wrenching!
Andrew: I want to cry! I'm actually tearing up right now. Poor guy. Okay, well, let's move on before the waterworks really start coming.
Laura: We also find out that Harry was, of course, the seventh and unintended Horcrux. This was the source of much debate [laughs] prior to Book 7 coming out.
Andrew: [laughs] Yes, and we mean very - something fluttered in my chest when I read that line. [laughs] No, that was wonderful. That was wonderful, because for anyone who doesn't know - I mean in particular, Ben and Emerson were having a very public fight with Melissa from Leaky over whether Harry or not was a Horcrux. Most notably it was discussed at our live podcast in July during the L.A. premiere. Emerson and Ben were fighting that Harry was a Horcrux, Melissa was saying he wasn't. So, of course, reading this, you know, it's like, "Oh my God! Ben and Emerson were right!" Did you guys think Harry was a Horcrux?
Laura: No, I actually didn't.
Andrew: Me either.
Laura: And I kind of laughed to myself when I read it. I was like "Ha! All right." [laughs]
Andrew: Through all the tears that were going on, you managed to...
Laura: Okay, I wasn't crying during this chapter.
Matt: Wait, what are we talking about?
Andrew: Harry being a Horcrux. Matt, did you think Harry was a Horcrux? Before you read it?
Matt: No, I didn't. I honestly - I did not think he was a Horcrux.
Andrew: None of us did.
Matt: I was listening - I mean I heard all your guys' podcasts, all - pretty much all of the two top podcasts for Harry Potter, and about all the people who said they thought he was a Horcrux and who didn't think. I was on the other side thinking that Harry was not a Horcrux.
Andrew: Good. Good boy. Actually, bad boy.
Matt: Well, you thought he wasn't one either.
Andrew: Go ahead, Laura, continue.
Laura: And we finally got confirmation on what Dumbledore's gleam of triumph was in Goblet of Fire. If you guys will remember, after Harry tells him that Voldemort used Harry's blood to rejuvenate himself, Harry could've sworn he saw a gleam of triumph in Dumbledore's eye. And this was a source of some speculation for a while because everyone was wondering, you know, "Why would Dumbledore look happy about this?" And it even...
Matt: What is a gleam of triumph?
Micah: Just like a...
Andrew: Hard to illustrate on an audio podcast.
Andrew: Your eye widens and you have a little smile, your eyebrows raise.
Micah: Almost like a smirk.
Matt: But like, triumph is like an ultimate, like, emotion. I mean if a gleam of triumph is pretty much just like his face just widening as far as it can go and his eyes going... [gasps]
Laura: Not necessarily.
Laura: It's kind of like - have you ever sort of been not - heard an argument going on or heard something going on that you weren't really involved in, but then the side that you were on came out on top, and you just kind of have that little moment of glee to yourself. That's kind of how I imagine it.
Andrew: There you go.
Matt: Oh, there you go, that's a good explanation. Good job, Laura! Good job!
Laura: Thanks, Matt. Anyhow. [laughs] How it was answered, was that Lily's protection was keeping both Harry and Voldemort alive because, as long as Voldemort lived, Harry was anchored to life because his blood flowed in Voldemort's veins with Lily's protection.
Micah: I have a question, because there was that whole explanation about the wands and why, you know, the wand that Harry was using sort of just acted of its own accord during this chapter. And it made absolutely no sense to me when Dumbledore was trying to explain this. Did you guys understand what was going on?
Andrew: What part exactly are you confused about? Just - how Harry's wand shot back at Voldemort when he cast Avada Kedavra, or whatever it was?
Laura: Oh, that's not 'till the next chapter, right? Or are we discussing...
Andrew: No, when Voldemort cast - I'm not - I'm confused what - sorry, Laura.
Laura: Well, I think - okay, you're talking about Harry and Voldemort wands shared a core.
Laura: And Voldemort then discovered that they couldn't fight against each other, so...
Micah: There's this part where Dumbledore's explaining how the wand knew to act by itself. Do you remember?
Laura: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that.
Micah: When they're in - the "Seven Potters" chapter where Voldemort reaches Harry, and then his wand just all of a sudden starts to shoot whatever spell it did out against Voldemort to protect him.
Laura: Yeah, he was saying that Harry's wand had come to recognize Voldemort's wand as both an enemy and a close relative, and so not only did it recognize it as a threat, but it knew how to protect itself from Voldemort, because Voldemort had the same capabilities.
Matt: Hmm. Well, didn't his - didn't Harry's wand after priori incantatum - when Harry won that battle because his courage was greater or whatever reason it was - didn't it say that the wand recognized Voldemort as a mortal enemy and could act on it's own accord?
Micah: Right, but wasn't he using Lucius' wand during that attack?
Matt: Right, but it's Voldemort's magic essence or whatever it is that the wand sensed.
Micah: Oh, okay.
Laura: Yeah. I think that's what it was.
Matt: Because it's not the wand that it recognizes; it's the person that the magic is coming from.
Laura: Yeah, because - yeah, Voldemort made the mistake of thinking that it was just the wand that mattered.
Micah: But then there was another... [laughs] ...part that he brought up. Remember when they were in Godric's Hollow, when they were about to - when they escaped from Voldemort, I thought that he mentioned something about that moment as well.
Laura: Well, he said that the wand...
Micah: That Voldemort was scared that night for some reason.
Laura: I don't remember that part. What I remember about Godric's Hollow was Harry asking if his wand was so strong why was Hermione able to break it? And Dumbledore essentially explained that, up against Voldemort, it became sort of this invincible death stick, whereas up against any other wand it would behave normally. I don't know if that answers your question, but...
Matt: Well, because it's the kinship between the two wands, I think it is.
Matt: It's just like when you're up against your friends, you know, your equals, but when you're up against your brother or sister it's like the bonds shift.
Laura: Yeah, that's true. It's like if you're playing Nintendo Wii. When you're playing it with a friend it's a little less formal than when you're playing it against a sibling and it's to the death.
Matt: Yeah, that's right.
[Micah and Laura laugh]
Matt: I win.
Micah: All right. Yeah, that helps me out, though. Sorry I'm stupid, but hey.
Andrew: Well, Micah, I'm glad I could answer your question.
Micah: Yeah, if your name is Laura then you did a great job.
Laura: Yeah, thanks, Laura.
Micah: And Matt.
Laura: I really enjoyed your analysis.
[Andrew and Micah laugh]
Micah: Moving on a little bit, what about Ariana and how he dreaded beyond all things that it could have been him who killed her? There's a couple things, it's not just Ariana here, but throughout this entire series of conversations that he's having with Harry, he also has some guilt about the Potters' murder, and Harry ends up reassuring him that his parents having the Invisibility Cloak wouldn't have helped them that night, that Voldemort knew where they were, and that he was going to kill them no matter what. But it's interesting now. You know, you almost see Dumbledore - when you do see Dumbledore he starts to break down. You know, Harry reassures him numerous times throughout the course this chapter, you know, that he is a good person, but, I mean, what do you guys think about how he reacted to the whole Ariana situation and then, you know, the Potters' murder? This is something about Dumbledore we've never seen before.
Matt: Well, I think - I think this - the Dumbledore that we see is, you know, of course, the deceased soul of Dumbledore. You know, when you die there's pretty much nothing to do but look back and think what could have been or what could have happened if I did this or that, and I think he's just blaming himself for the things that he thinks could've gone better and done by him. So maybe that's why he was seeming like he was apologizing for the Potters' death and that it was his fault. I think he tends to take a lot of the blame for himself.
Matt: Because he does - 'cause he thinks that he's such a flawed person that - you know, in contradiction to what other people think of him.
Laura: Well, he also realizes that, despite any sort of idea to the contrary, his flaws contributed largely to these tragedies. I mean especially the one involving the death of his sister. You know, Harry can say the Invisibility Cloak wouldn't have helped his parents all he wanted, but there's a decided advantage to escaping from a murderer when you're invisible. Maybe that's just me.
Andrew: Nope, you're right. [laughs] But, I mean, I think also that Dumbledore can't help but be apologetic in this situation. I mean just look where Harry is. And maybe this is the Harry that Dumbledore sees in his mind - just an apologetic version. I think Harry would want Dumbledore to be apologetic.
Micah: Well, and being completely truthful, too...
Micah: ...I mean it's time to come clean with everything that's been going on for the past seven years or more.
Andrew: Do you guys remember - I do. Do you guys remember before Order of the Phoenix came out, they released that little snippet...
Laura: Oh yeah. Yeah.
Andrew: This gets me so much.
Matt: Oh my gosh.
Andrew: "Sit down, Harry, it's time to tell you everything." Or something along those lines.
Laura: They posted that thing on, like, store windows everywhere.
Andrew: I pooped my pants.
Andrew: I straight up pooped my pants. Dumbledore is going to tell Harry everything. Like, this is...
Andrew: No, but seriously, I mean, you know. That's just one of the coolest lines of Order of the Phoenix, especially as a teaser!
Laura: And then he didn't really tell him that much.
Andrew: No! [laughs]
Laura: He didn't tell him anything!
Andrew: Oh my god.
Micah: You're talking about the movie, right?
Andrew and Laura: No!
Laura: The book.
Andrew: The book.
Micah: Oh. That was before my time reading.
Andrew: Oh, okay. But, oh my gosh, like, you know, I'm glad they did that, just 'cause that made me, like, so happy. I was just running on a natural high. You know, those - running down the street singing, "Dumbledore's going to tell him everything!"
Matt: See, I remember reading that when I was walking past, I think it was Borders or something, and I read it. And I - I was kind of skeptic, though, about it, because it was the fifth book in a seven book series.
Andrew: Yeah, that's true.
Matt: Like, what can you possibly tell everything - I mean, is it really just going to be two books of him knowing everything and being in control? That's not going to be very fun.
Laura: Well, I thought it was going to be everything Dumbledore knew. And I was assuming that there was going to be some stuff that he didn't know. Not that he knew everything the whole time and that he was just lying... [laughs] ...and disclosing information in a systematic one book each per rate. Ugh.
Matt: I mean think of what we know now. If that really happened where Dumbledore, you know, said, "Okay, Harry, sit down. I'm going to tell you everything." He's going to like overload this kid with all this information and that's going to be a six chapter book - part of the book, just him telling everything.
Laura: And they'll turn it into five minutes of a movie. [laughs]
Matt: Or they just cut it and put it in the deleted scenes. [laughs]
Laura: Yeah, or they don't explain anything, like they did in Order of the Phoenix.
Matt: "I'm just saying I love you and I just didn't want to be as tempted to say that."
Micah: Well, I guess here we can kind of talk about - he brings up Grindelwald and everything that went along with him. And what I wanted to add to this was, you really get an idea of how much like the Death Eaters these two guys were, at least in theory, early on.
Micah: And it's kind of scary, 'cause you don't realize that - again, that there's this side to Dumbledore that existed. So...
Laura: Yeah. Oh, no, it's true. I mean he even talks about how much the idea of making Muggles subservient pleased him.
Laura: He really sort of gloried in that idea. And...
Laura: ..it's interesting to see the complete turn around he made.
Micah: Yup. And he literally goes through the Deathly Hallows like one by one. He's like "this is what the Elder Wand would have done for us, this is what the Resurrection Stone would have done." He - he says "we would've had an army of Infiri." - you know. And then of course the Invisibility Cloak, but, you know, and then - then he goes on to mention how he would have used the Resurrection Stone more for his own selfish reasons to bring back...
Micah: ...his family.
Matt: This kind of reminds me of - I'm sorry I'm going to use a little parallel to another fantasy series - of Lord of the Rings when Gandalf said that he would use the ring of power for good, but knowing that the ring would just be evil. It just reminds me of, you know, Gandalf and...
Matt: ...Dumbledore parallels where they know that they - they know what kind of person they are if they had that kind of power with them.
Laura: Yeah, and Dumbledore talks a lot about power in this chapter, and this is where we find out why he turned down being Minister of Magic so many times, because he knew if he was given an ounce of power he took an immense risk of becoming a totalitarian.
Matt: But a nice one.
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