Parallels Between Salazar Slytherin and Politicians

Laura: You know what kind of bothers me about this whole scenario, is that Slytherin actually created this with the attempt of letting an heir do it for him. And I'm still kind of confused as to why he didn't do it himself if he was so hell bent on it. And it almost gives him a god-like reverence to his followers, you know?

Elysa: Mhm.

Laura: To anybody who would look up to Salazar Slytherin, it's like...

Andrew: He's the original?

Laura: Right. Like he - it's almost like a god-like way, and I really - I see a parallel, and I'm not going to name specific names, but there have been people - politicians and terrorists otherwise - who have stated that they were meant to do something because of either a god or someone who lived a very long time ago. And I think that's kind of an unsettling sort of parallel. I don't know.

Matt: I think that the reason why Salazar Slytherin made the Chamber of Secrets was because at that time when he made it, he knew that he couldn't do the things that he wanted to do because he couldn't - wasn't a good match against Godric Gryffindor and the other founders. So he knew that he would have to do something. So after he would have to leave, someone else could finish the job for him.

Elysa: Mhm.

Laura: Yeah. It's just - I don't know. It's hard for me to understand why he did it the way he did, just because he did leave the school eventually anyway, so it just seems like it would make more sense if his overall goal was to purge the world, and the school more specifically, of people who weren't pureblooded, then I think that he would just set the monster loose and then leave, but...

Elysa: Right.

Micah: Right. But I mean, this gets into a deeper discussion, I guess, about all the Hitler references and the Nazi references that I'm sure we'll talk about a little bit later on, but with Slytherin, his mindset was just that only those of the purest blood and nobody else. And that's a pretty prejudicial stance to have on anything.

Andrew: Oh, he's just being naive if he assumes that forever and always after he created Hogwarts was just purebloods, that wizards - other wizards would never be educated. I mean, somebody would stand up and do something. Wouldn't he have thought that?

Dehumanization

Micah: Yeah, but what's interesting is even some of the greatest characters in the series that we tend to identify with a little bit more, those that are on the supposed good side, identified with that type of thinking early on in their life, and particularly Dumbledore. And I know we'll talk about him right now. But he was somebody that we saw and we learned about in King's Cross that had a very, very sort of issue. A big issue with power. And he himself thought about how great it would be to have this power over Muggles and people who weren't of the wizarding blood.

Laura: Yeah, and there were sort of - and I mean, okay. There was sort of a similar attitude held here in the United States for a period of time, when it comes to control of certain groups and what they're doing. When we were having a great influx of immigrants from Eastern Europe, particularly, the United States was actually sterilizing these people to keep them from breeding, because they didn't want - yeah, this was the time - it's sort of a parallel to now, because now we have such a great influx of immigrants from Mexico and other Latin American countries, and people really - or there's at least a very large sentiment against these people who are coming, and it's the same way people felt particularly against the Irish when they came here. So it's sort of like that same idea of putting them - making them their own group, and sort of dehumanizing them, and then making it okay to deny them their basic human rights, which is what I think Slytherin was doing, or attempting to do, by not allowing Half-bloods and Muggle-borns education.

Elysa: Mhm.

Those Who Want Power Should Not Have Power

Micah: Yeah, and I mean, like I said, he wasn't the only one that thought along these lines. I know we have a quote here about Dumbledore and Grindelwald, but anybody want to read it?

Laura: The quote is, "It is a curious thing, Harry, but perhaps those who are best suited to power are those who have never sought it. Those who, like you, have leadership thrust upon them and take up the mantle because they must, and find to their own surprise that they will wear it well."

Andrew: Well, and it's also been discussed that Harry has a lot of qualities. That quote reminds me of this. Harry Potter has a lot of qualities like Salazar. They were both Parselmouths, they were both resourceful, they had a lot of determination. I mean, these qualities - what is Dumbledore trying to say here exactly?

Laura: Well, he's basically trying to say that people who desire power and desire to be leaders are probably not the best people to do it, because they become easily corrupt.

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: Which kind of - I mean, just looking at the election, I always kind of felt like anybody who would want to run for President must be somewhat of an egomaniac, because - whoa.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Because that is quite an undertaking, and it's like - it makes you wonder, what is the motivation behind the people...

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: ...who are running for a public office?

Andrew: And - well, that's a good point, because you have to wonder - they always say, you know, "I'm doing it for you guys!" But are they really? I mean...

Matt: Mhm.

Laura: Mhm.

Andrew: Is there anyone out there who's that in love with the people of America so much that they would take a role as huge as President?

Elysa: I mean, I don't know. Honestly, speaking as someone who has plans to be a politician one day, I can personally say that that's my motivation. I'm not kidding.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: But you're special, Elysa.

Elysa: Maybe that's really naive.

Laura: You're special, though.

Elysa: I am. It's because I'm a badger, isn't it? I'm a Hufflepuff.

Laura: Yeah.

Elysa: I know. But in all seriousness, I think - I mean, I think there's a distinction to be made as well. I think that seizing power and - is completely different than putting yourself up for a vote and respecting the rules of democracy and of a republic. But you see with Voldemort, and every other dictator in the world, whether Stalin, or Hitler, or Mussolini, they've all seized power and taken it for themselves through a revolution or revolt on that, you know, oftentimes, is completely ignore the rule of law, so I think there is a really big difference between trying to take power for yourself and then to trying to just integrate into a political system.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: Right.

Matt: Well, I think what J.K. Rowling meant when she did that quote was that she meant - she meant to say that leaders, the great leaders, are born when problems arise and when a leader is needed. I don't think - I think she means that when you seek power for too much - for more than personal gain, like Andrew said, you just get easily corrupted and you just get - there's no balance between them.

Elysa: Mmm.

Micah: I think, Elysa, what you said too, the difference between those people you brought up and Dumbledore down the road is that he admits himself that he learned that he was not to be trusted with any sort of power. And...

Elysa: Right.

Micah: We see him tell Harry specifically that he would have never taken the role of Minister of Magic for fear of him being corrupted by that power. Just because of the other things that he enlightens with Harry. And he says - and I'll just read this quote here real fast. But he says:

"Grindelwald. You cannot imagine how his ideas caught me, Harry, inflamed me. Muggles forced into subservience. We wizards triumphant. Grindelwald and I, the glorious young leaders of the revolution. Oh, I had a few scruples. I assuaged my conscience with empty words. It would all be for the greater good, and any harm done would be repaid a hundredfold in the benefit for wizards. Did I know, in my heart of hearts, what Gellert Grindelwald was? I think I did, but I closed my eyes. If the plans we were making came to fruition, all my dreams would come true."

So...

Laura: Oh, Dumbledore.

Micah: And that's Dumbledore speaking.

Matt: Yeah, that kind of upsets me. Like he would - he knows - he knows in the back of his mind about what's really happening but he just chooses to ignore it and just try to - let Grindelwald cloud his mind. And he lets him do it, and he knows he's doing it.

Andrew: Because he had a fascination with him!

Matt: I know...

Andrew: Like, J.K. Rowling said...

Matt: That's what upsets me a little bit. But...

Elysa: Well, I mean, here's the thing, is that at least I think it happens to most people in their lives, at some point. Probably not on such a grand scale as planning a revolution or an oppression of the people. But I think that - I would say the majority of people are fascinated and overtaken by some kind of concept or person, but not everyone - in fact very few people - have the courage and their perspective to look back and realize that's what happened and to admit to it. So for me, that whole dynamic that Dumbledore plays out here in this scene made me kind of respect him and love him even more, in a way. Because I felt like it just - it proved how wise he was, because a lot of times being wise isn't about always being right. It's about being able to admit when you were wrong.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, yeah, but as we discussed before, this just makes Dumbledore a very real person too.

Micah: Yeah.

Elysa: Yeah, exactly.

Micah: But it also shows that even somebody as great as him and as good as him had these ideas in his head, even though it was probably at a relatively young age. But it just shows that how these ideas really can take hold of people, and how power is really a dangerous thing.

Elysa: Mhm.

Parallel Between Deathly Hallows Symbol and Swastika

Micah: But I guess we can move on. And I know we've talked about this on past shows, but the Deathly Hallows symbol shows up on the walls at Durmstrang, and it really did remind me of how the Nazis would use the Swastika in different places to instill fear in those - and it's not just in World War II; it's obviously still used to this day to sort of represent racism and prejudice and things of that nature.

Elysa: Well, you know what I found the most fascinating about this, is that both symbols begin out - they originated in sort of like a benign fashion.

Matt: Exactly. I was going to say that too.

Elysa: Yeah, the Swastika originally - it actually - originally I think it was sand script for Swastika, which means "to be good." And it was used all across central Europe and even actually in a lot of Native American cultures. It's one of the most universal symbols that there are - that there is. And it was transformed completely by this propaganda of nationalism that the Nazis employed, and so now, even though for 3,000 years it existed as a symbol of peace and good nature, in a course of a few years, a decade, now we look back on it and we see it as a symbol of prejudice and hate. And in a lot of ways rightly so, but it's the same thing with the Deathly Hallows symbol. I mean, essentially, when you break it down, it's just a wand and a stone and a cloak, and it originated from a legend - a fairy tale, and it was completely transformed by hate.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: Right.

Laura: Yeah, and another...

Micah: It's interesting - go ahead.

Laura: Oh. I was just going to say, another - and this sort of relates to the propaganda thing that Elysa was talking about - but another sort of parallel you can see between the two symbols is they are both so simple. Like, the whole point of having a propaganda campaign...

Elysa: Mhm.

Laura: ...is you want it to be simple, because you want people to remember it. If the Swastika had had tons of elaborate...

Elysa: Exactly.

Laura: ...design, people wouldn't remember it as well as they do. But it's stark, it's simple, and it just sticks in our brains. And what better symbols to use in the wizarding world than a wand, a cloak, and, what, the Resurrection Stone? Which apparently...

Matt: Yeah.

Laura: ...is engrained in bedtime stories...

Elysa: Yeah.

Laura: ...that you hear from when you're a child. So... [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: But when you say "remember," do you mean it's easy to remember for people to use so that they can instill that fear?

Laura: No, it's - I mean, it's just easy to remember in general. Like you see it and you know. Who didn't know what the Swastika was when they were a child? Even if you didn't know all the history behind it, you still knew it was a bad symbol, because you'd been brought up to think that way. Anytime you saw it on a book somewhere, it was some - a book with a negative connotation about Nazism, for instance. You know?

Andrew: Yeah. But for argument's sake...

Micah: Right.

Andrew: ...I mean, is simplicity really what sticks with people in their mind?

Laura: Yes.

Andrew: Because if you think of something - really?

Laura: Yes.

Elysa: Yeah. Well, when you're trying to make an argument about something, especially when it's an irrational argument, and a racist or prejudiced argument, the best way to do it is to simplify and to demonize the people.

Andrew: Hmm.

Elysa: So you take a whole race or something and you simplify them to - so they're not even really humans anymore. They're just objectified. And when you objectify something, you are inherently simplifying it. And so that's why propagandists will always use a lot of really simplistic symbols and signs, and even catchphrases, to get their point across.

Laura: Yeah. And honestly, as bad as it sounds, the Nazis were brilliant propagandists. There's...

Elysa: No, they were. Can't deny it.

Laura: ...absolutely no way around it.

Andrew: Mhm.

Laura: Why do you think that to this day politicians hold these huge rallies? Because it's harder to have your own individual thought and to actually interpret what they're telling you when you're standing in a crowd of 10,000 people screaming. And that's exactly what the Nazis did. They gave these people their little Swastika flags, and starting yelling about - you know, Hitler did a lot of yelling. [laughs]

[Elysa and Micah laugh]

Manipulation

Laura: And people took it, because it's so - if you're sitting across a table from Hitler, it's much easier to sort of reflect on what he's saying. But when you're shouting at the top of your lungs because you feel that your country's economy has been driven into the ground because of one race, it's much harder to reflect on that. And that's what made them so brilliant in what they did, because they knew how to manipulate people.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Mhm.

Laura: And I think Voldemort did too.

Micah: Well, he played...

Andrew: Yeah, I think you're right.

Micah: I think he played on their fears and insecurities more than Hitler did. Maybe I could be wrong on that, but I think that maybe that's a shared characteristic between the two of them, and I think that's how they were able to motivate. You used the example of, hey, the Jewish people are responsible for all the failures in the economy at the time in Europe, and Voldemort kind of did the same thing, saying, oh, well, if we don't take care of the non-purebloods, then all these half-bloods and Muggles are going to come along and they're going to take all the jobs away, or they're going to really just - I guess take the things away from the purebloods that he believed was their given right.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: Well, and I mean, I think you said that you're not sure if Voldemort played off their more - their insecurities more than Hitler did, but I think that we just see it more throughout the Harry Potter books than we really saw with Harry.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: But I mean, you've got to think about - think about the diary of Anne Frank. I mean, talk about playing off insecurities. There's some serious insecurity there, so...

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: I think we just read about it more in this book.

Elysa: I think Hitler, more than anything, played off of anger than anything else, because the Nazi people - or not the Nazi people, listen to me. Geez. The German people - [laughs] - the German people, they were really - they weren't insecure as much as they were angry over the Treaty of Versailles, the War Guilt Clause, and things of that nature. And so I think, more than any other emotion, Hitler fed off of anger and discontent than insecurity, but that's just my perspective.

Micah: Well, speaking of Voldemort, let's...

Andrew: Hey, can I bring something up?

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Just before we move on, though.

Micah: Sure.

The Reason for the Parallels

Andrew: I think that the reason that J.K. Rowling brings all these parallels into the books, like the ones we're discussing right now, is because those - these parallels are really what can be - get - bring the most emotion out of reading them. Because it's already been proven and tested that these kinds of stories can really bring a lot of emotion out of people. So I think that - I'm not saying that J.K. Rowling's just going the easy way by using a similar story, but I think that it's just a proven formula that works, and I think maybe that was her thinking behind it, perhaps?

Micah: Yeah. I mean, I wouldn't even say that...

Andrew: Or one of the reasons.

Micah: ...it's - that you could call it an easy route. I think that it takes a lot of creativity...

Andrew: No. Oh yeah.

Micah: ...to be able to weave that...

Andrew: Oh yeah.

Micah: ...into a story, and really - to have people look through it, pick out the comparisons. And maybe there are a lot of things that are in there that are just coincidence, too. But I think, though, knowing her background, knowing that she used to be a teacher, that there are these events that you can compare to what happened in the real world, and they're there for a reason. And I think the biggest one is hopefully that people learn from them.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: You know, they can draw similar conclusions and comparisons, and they in themselves can learn from it.

Andrew: Yeah.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: I really don't think it's a coincidence, to be honest with you, though. I feel like all this stuff was written for a reason.

Micah: Not after the - not after that opening quote about how she wanted Harry to face the same things in his world as - that took place in the...

Andrew: Oh yeah.

Comparing Voldemort and Hitler

Micah: In the real world, so. But I guess we can move on to Voldemort, right?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I mean, we can start with the basic facts. We mentioned before that he was the Heir of Slytherin. And something interesting about him was that he himself was a half-blood. And we all know that Hitler wasn't very representative of the Aryan race that he prized so much.

Andrew: Mhm.

Micah: Blonde hair, blue eyes. If you look at a picture of Hitler, he definitely did not have those qualities. And again, I just thought that that was an interesting similarity. Voldemort himself is so gung ho about purebloods, and yet he himself is a half-blood. Isn't that somewhat hypocritical?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: I guess more so what I wondered was, does he no longer consider himself a half-blood once be becomes Voldemort? Is he now Voldemort the pureblood...

Andrew: He's just Voldemort, yeah.

Micah: ...crazy wizard.

Matt: He's just - he doesn't even talk about it. I don't even think he thinks about it anymore. It's not even an issue in his mind.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, he hates himself for being a half-blood. So, yeah. He would - he's Voldemort.

Matt: Yeah, he doesn't even consider himself any type of blood. He considers himself immortal.

Laura: Yeah. And although - I will point out that being blonde-haired and blue-eyed wasn't really a necessity to be part of the Nazi Party. I mean, I know if you look at any number of Nazi propaganda films like Triumph of the Will, you'll see all these strapping young blonde-haired, blue-eyed soldiers. But actually, what the Nazis believed was that you could be Aryan and have non-Aryan features, because - and this was how they would put it - your ancestors had mixed with the Slavs, or something like that. There's actually a really great film called Europa Europa about a young Jewish boy who actually infiltrated the Hitler Youth school, and it's a true story. And they actually brought him up to the front of the classroom and did all the weird scientific measurements they did that would justify whether you were Aryan or not. And they would sit - and they said that this young Jewish boy was of pure Aryan descent, but that he had - that his ancestors had just mixed around a little bit with Slavs and it really wasn't his fault. So that's kind of how they viewed that, but I don't know. I just thought I'd throw that out there.

Matt: Good.

Micah: Yeah. The next couple points are not mine, so I'm going to defer to whoever put them in there.

Andrew: We're going to turn it over to Laura.

Laura: I didn't put that there.

Elysa: I think I - I think I put that...

Micah: [laughs] Or Elysa.

[Everyone laughs]

Elysa: Well, the next point was just that both Voldemort and Hitler had experiences in their youth that contributed to their adult prejudices. Voldemort, obviously, with the orphanage and how he always talks about sort of being ostracized and being the odd man out, and not fitting in, and indeed getting so frustrated and angry about it that he would attack the other students and use his magic against them. But Hitler had a similar experience when he was growing up. Hitler was actually Austrian. He was born in Austria. And when he grew up in his town the economy was terrible, primarily because of the reparations that Austria had to pay after World War I. And he blamed the economy on the Jewish people because there was a high percentage of Jews in his particular town. So he just made this very, again, simplistic though largely inaccurate connection between Jews and the economy. And this experience as a youth and growing up in sort of like an impoverished country is a huge factor for why he had a prejudice against Jews later on in his life.

Micah: And then you also mentioned that they both failed in their initial attempts to seize power?

Elysa: Oh, yeah, sorry, I lost the place in the Google doc.

Laura: Isn't that when he wrote that huge rambling sentence of a novel, Mein Kampf? Didn't he write that in prison?

Elysa: [laughs] Yeah, yeah, yeah exactly. Hitler tried seizing power first with the Beer Hall Pusch, and it failed miserably, and he almost - he contemplated suicide afterwards and was thrown in jail and that's where he wrote Mein Kampf. But then, of course, later, his second rise to power, he was much more successful, or closer to succeeding in what his ultimate goal was. And I see a parallel with Voldemort as well. Just in that...

Micah: Right.

Elysa: ...Voldemort tried to rise to power, failed. And he failed the second time as well, but so did Hitler. But I think the second time they both came closer.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Mhm.

Micah: Right.

Andrew: This is a - these parallels really are - this may sound weird, but I think they are pretty beautiful. Just like comparing the Death Eaters to Nazi Germany.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: It's just so well done.

Comparing Death Eaters and Nazi Soldiers

Micah: Well, we can talk about them, I guess. [laughs] You know, Voldemort, he organized an army who followed his every word and feared his every act. And Elysa and Laura, you guys are far more informed on this than I am, but I know Hitler did some of the same things. But wasn't it more because people actually believed in what he said, not that they feared his every act?

Elysa: Yeah. I mean, there was, like I said, there was a lot of anger with Hitler. There was a lot of anger among the German people for the reparations and the War Guilt Clause in the Treaty of Versailles. So it started out initially - I think eventually it definitely evolved into a dynamic of fear and oppression for sure. But I think initially Hitler - what's important to remember is that initially Hitler was elected. He was appointed as Chancellor and he was elected by his party. He - with the exception of the initial Beer Hall Pusch, from which he tried to seize power, after that he learned his lesson and realized that the only way to actually take power was to do it through democratic means, and he did. And obviously, the only way to do that, through democratic means, is to have the power that people are on your side. So initially he was an extremely popular figure.

Micah: Right. As opposed to Voldemort, who was not.

[Elysa and Micah laugh]

Andrew: Yeah.

Elysa: Right. Yeah, certainly not among the entire magical world as Hitler was with the German people, no.

Micah: Now what about this point about Voldemort sort of mobilizing into somewhat underground manner...

[Laura sneezes]

Elysa: Bless you.

Micah: God bless you.

Laura: [laughs] Thank you.

Micah: [laughs] That's what she thinks about that.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But...

Laura: Sorry.

Micah: [laughs] Him mobilizing into somewhat underground manner, similar to Hitler. I mean, you mentioned very early on he had this Beer Hall approach. I mean... [laughs] ...Voldemort wasn't going around to all the local taverns and pitching his ideas. But...

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: But he kind of went about it in a comparative way. He was - I always have this idea of Voldemort sort of just going from place to place to place in a kind of a very concealed manner and recruiting people that way. You know what I mean?

Andrew: It's like - and I mean this isn't really a joke - but it's sort of like Osama Bin Laden style, how he's just always hiding in the caves and we can never find him. Similar to how Voldemort can never really be found unless he wanted to be found.

Micah: Right, and - yeah, I mean that's not a bad comparison, because he didn't - same with Bin Laden, he didn't fully show his true power until he was confident that his plans would work. You know?

Andrew: Right.

Micah: You think about 9/11. He didn't come to the surface fully until he knew that that act was going to be carried out with success.

Matt: Mhm.

Andrew: It's always interesting, too, like when you don't see Bin Laden around for a while, or now a lot of people are concerned about the Korean leader, what's his name?

Elysa: Kim Jong-Il?

Andrew: Kim Jong...

Elysa: Kim Jong-Il.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, the government there, I read on CNN, released a picture of him smiling the other day to assure people he's in good health. I kind of always wished that in Harry Potter it would've been cool to see some of that like, "Is Voldemort even still alive? Do we even know?" I mean, there's not that much time in the books to do that because this is only over seven years.

Micah: So moving on to the Death Eaters. We just mentioned briefly before, very similar to the Nazi's catching on and following Hitler. And what I really want to talk about here was that you had these Death Eaters after the initial fall of Voldemort that went before the Wizengamot, and they eventually were sent off to Azkaban, some of them hoping one day that Voldemort would return to power. And I thought this was a little bit similar to the Nuremberg trials after the war was over. The Nazis were put on trial, some of the higher officials, and eventually once convicted, these soldiers were executed. I wonder why none of the Death Eaters were ever thought to be executed?

Elysa: I don't know, but I can say that a parallel that I would draw with this is that the Nuremberg trials, as well as what we see with the Death Eaters, is they both - they both take the guilt off of themselves and try and deflect it to their leader. You know, you see a lot of Death Eaters saying, "I was bewitched. I was put under the Imperius Curse," and everything else like that. And same case at the Nuremberg trials, a lot of the SS and the Nazis, they were all saying, "I was afraid for my life." Sort of a Peter Pettigrew defense. Like, "What was I supposed to do?" And so I don't know. I'm not sure if that actually worked. I know that at the Nuremberg trials there were a couple, not all, but there were a couple of people who got off on that defense. So maybe it was the same thing with the Death Eaters, I don't know.

Muggle-born Registration Commission and "Magic is Might" Statue

Micah: Okay, well, moving on: the last point we have here in this sort of racism/prejudice category was the Muggle-born Registration Commission and the "Magic is Might" statue that showed up in Deathly Hallows, and I think, Laura, you actually put this in here, talking about that the Commission was not just a tie to the way the Nazis rounded up the Jews and other people in World War II...

Laura: Yeah...

Micah: ...but there were other examples in history as well.

Laura: Yes. The one that I was primarily thinking of was - again, it actually took place here, and what's really disturbing is a lot of people don't know about it, because it's pretty well covered up. But after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States rounded up Japanese-Americans and put them in internment camps in the U.S., because they thought that anybody who was of Japanese heritage would be a threat to our society after this attack. So...

Micah: Right.

Laura: ...it's sort of like the same idea, the...

Micah: Right.

Andrew: Definitely.

Matt: Yeah.

Micah: And in particular, the statue, also, that we see in the hall at the Ministry of Magic, it was really disturbing to me because when I read that description, I immediately thought of the concentration camps. You know, you have these people just really twisted and contorted, all on top of each other, and it was just disgusting, if you think about it. You have these wizards sitting on top of this body of bodies, literally. It's kind of a disturbing picture to put in your head. I see, Laura, here, that you also mentioned that being anti-Semitic and anti-Muggle-born was already somewhat acceptable in the Harry Potter series up until this point, where we see this Commission. Do you mean just from what we've heard from people like the Malfoys and other families, or you could even relate that to Dumbledore, I think, because you look at when you hear from him in King's Cross, he's talking about the idea of wizards being triumphant and Muggles being subservient.

Laura: I didn't actually put the point in there, but I can tell you what I think. I think it's just another parallel to show. I mean, it is completely inaccurate to say that we live in a society without racism and prejudice. It is very much present in our society, and in many areas, it's acceptable, which is disgusting. But it's true. So I think it's just another tie to our more contemporary society, to make it more prevalent, so...

Micah: Yeah. I think in particular here, you just see it manifesting itself, whereas - and I'll even bring it up, because I know it's something that took place recently, but you look at what has gone on at some of the campaign rallies holded - held, excuse me - by Senator McCain and Governor Palin, in terms of the crowd's response to certain things that were said and what they've said about Senator Obama. And the idea that racism, as you've just said, it does not exist in today's society, all you have to do is go and look at something like that, in 2008, this kind of stuff is still going on.

Andrew: Yeah. It was about Obama specifically when they were talking about some of his stances, and I remember hearing that that did end up getting a lot of press a couple of weeks ago, and I remember hearing that once they saw what was going on, or once it started gaining press they, McCain and Palin, adjusted their speeches a bit, I guess to, I don't know, calm the crowds down or something, but it's amazing that that really still happens, and even over our presidential candidates.

Laura: And what's very disturbing is we see the kind sort of scapegoating going on right now that you can also draw a parallel to the Holocaust. There's been that big flap the past few months about people thinking that Barack Obama is a Muslim. First of all, he's not. Second of all, who cares?

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Why would it matter if he was? Because currently in our society, people of Arabic descent and people who practice Islam are considered scapegoats. And any time these people want to blame something terrible on someone else, they blame it on someone who is either Arabic or fits a very generic Middle-Eastern stereotype in terms of how they look. And I remember a few weeks ago there was footage of John McCain speaking with a woman who said she couldn't trust Barack Obama because he was an Arab. And what bothered me more than anything, more than her saying that, was that John McCain responded to her and said, "No ma'am, he is not. He is a good citizen with whom I have disagreements." So he made a distinction between being an Arab and being a good citizen. And that really, really bothered me. And I'm going to shut up now.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, yeah, I mean, this is the point, you know, that I think Micah's - we're all - we've all been trying to make, is that it was very real in the Harry Potter fandom too. And it was almost coincidental that Jo brought this up because, really, I mean, there hasn't been many blatant - unless I'm missing something, or maybe I'm completely off - but there hasn't been many blatant attempts at racism lately other than - but - well, there hasn't been any attempts before this presidential election. I mean, am I right or...

Elysa: There was actually - I don't know, no one's really sure...

Andrew: Well, there's the occasional story, like Don Imus having a remark about a woman's basketball team.

Laura: Well, did you hear about the - the two men who were just arrested because they had an assassination plot? And they were - they were planning to kill...

Micah: Yeah.

Laura: ...something like twenty other African-American citizens before they - yeah. It happens.

Micah: Yeah. I think...

Andrew: But you - I mean...

Micah: ...Andrew's referring to other incidents...

Laura: Like...

Micah: ...before the election.

Laura: Oh, before the election. Like...

Andrew: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Micah: Yeah, I think...

Andrew: I think it's coincidental that Jo brought this up a year ago in Deathly Hallows, but now it's happening again. It seems to be picking up more than it was actually at about a year ago.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: Yeah, but I think there are always isolated incidents that are going to make the national media, but you have to remember there are also incidents that take place at the local level, in your local newspaper, that you never hear about - or sorry - that the national audience never hears about. So it still does exist; there's no question about it. I mean, there are incidents - there was one that just took place on Long Island about a Swastika being spray-painted on a temple or a Menorah being overturned and vandalized. I mean, it does take place; it may not be at the level of - to receive national attention, but it still does happen.

Elysa: Right.

Laura: Mhm. I agree.

Micah: And you know that kind of - those were the final points about the Muggle-borns, saying that they were really responsible, according to Voldemort, for the falling standards of the Wizarding World, and I know Laura alluded to before about how that was similar - or, Elysa did - about, you know, Germany's failing economy, and the Jews were blamed for that, so there's another comparison there. And it also says here that in the years prior to the Holocaust, Jews would often be terrorized and have their residences and businesses vandalized, the biggest night of course being Kristallnacht, which was the Night of Broken Glass, where literally hundreds, if not thousands, of stores and homes were just completely destroyed. And I think Laura here pointed out - there's a similar incidence with a Muggle family in Goblet of Fire, where they're tortured at the Quidditch World Cup, and nobody really thinks of it as being against the law. They just see it as happening. And they kind of turn a blind eye because they're all running for their lives themselves.

Andrew: The final quote we wanted to make here on this topic was that even Ron said that he would tell everyone Hermione was his cousin so Hermione wasn't known as a Mudblood. And oftentimes, friends of Jewish families would attempt to do this too, so another good parallel and a very interesting and a slightly more hidden one, I think.

Micah: Well, yeah, you brought up Anne Frank before. That's a...

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: ...perfect example of that.

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's an amazing story.

Micah: All right.

Andrew: And movie.

Micah: So we've finally moved off our first point there of racism and ethnic cleansing and Nazism.

Andrew: Whoo! Happy Election Day!

[Matt and Micah laugh]

The Evils of War: Innocents Killed

Micah: Yeah, exactly. The remainder of the points, I guess, are a little bit shorter, but one of the things I just want to touch on real fast was the evils of war and, obviously, with a lot going on with our country, here in the U.S., and others around the world who are helping out, but J.K. Rowling said, "I very consciously wanted to show what is one of the great evils of war, which is that totally innocent people are slaughtered." Another great evil of war is that children lose their families. So...

Andrew: And I mean, this is her talking about the deaths in Book 7, I guess, or just as a whole. Yeah. I mean, yeah, that was - that was one of the - I remember the first quote when Jo said like oh, it's going to be a bloodbath, and the press picked that up. And everyone said, well, you know, of course, the press eats that kind of stuff up, but, really, it's not a surprise because they are going into a war, and innocent people would die, so...

Micah: Yeah. I actually think this was in response to a question about why Remus and Tonks had to die.

Andrew: Oh, okay.

Matt: Mhm.

Micah: And it makes sense, if you think about it.

Matt: They were just boring characters.

Andrew: It does make sense, although people...

[Everyone laughs]

Elysa: Matt! Oh, my God! Blasphemy! Kick him off the show now.

Andrew: Banned from the show.

Matt: No!

Andrew: Mic off. No more mic.

Micah: No, we needed a good laugh. This was too serious of a show so far. [laughs]

Andrew: Hey, his mic's off for ten minutes.

Elysa: I do not find insulting Remus Lupin funny.

Matt: Hook my mic up! Thank you.

Micah: Matt.

Andrew: Okay.

[Elysa and Micah laugh]

Matt: What?

Andrew: Do you have any apologies or anything to say?

Matt: Yeah, I'm sorry...

Andrew: Sorry, your mic's off. Sorry, can't hear you.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Joke's over.

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