MuggleCast 222 Transcript (continued)



Chapter-by-Chapter: "The Pensieve"


Andrew: Okay, now let's move on to Chapter-by-Chapter. This week we're looking at Goblet of Fire, Chapters 30 and 31.

Micah: Two very long chapters, by the way. [laughs]

Eric: They are long.

Andrew: Yes.

Eric: It's very insightful that we only did two this week.

Andrew: Yes, I planned that all along. [laughs] Well, hopefully we can move through them like we can with two other normal chapters because that's the whole point...

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Andrew: ...of doing this, cutting it down to two chapters. Okay, Eric's got the first chapter, "The Pensieve."

Eric: The first chapter that we're doing today - so Chapter 30 is called "The Pensieve" and it takes place, [laughs] obviously, right after Chapter 29 leaves off. Harry is going to Dumbledore's office and it begins - Harry has kind of been discovered by Mad-Eye Moody whose eye can see through doors. And Harry is in Dumbledore's office, he needs to talk to Dumbledore, he wants to tell Dumbledore about the dream he had. But first they leave him - it's Fudge, Moody and Dumbledore, and Dumbledore says, "I'll be right back," they're going to go search the grounds, I believe, for Barty Crouch. So, pretty soon Harry is unattended in Dumbledore's office and it is said that this is the second time Harry was in Dumbledore's office, I guess the first time was in year two. I think it's actually the third time, though, because he was in Dumbledore's office twice during year two, earlier on when he's called in for questioning about Nearly Headless Nick and then at the end of the book. But...

Andrew: Yeah, it is interesting because you would have thought - having read all the books now it's, like, oh wow, he's in his fourth year and this is only the second - third time. So...

Eric: And that adds fuel to a question I have later on, but Harry feels really comfortable in Dumbledore's office. He's relieved, he's patient, and he begins looking around and he sees all these old relics like the sword of Godric Gryffindor, the Sorting Hat, Fawkes, obviously, and all the portraits of previous headmasters of Hogwarts sleeping. Is this - I guess it's a pretty somber place but why does Harry feel so comfortable in Dumbledore's office? Even when Dumbledore's not there?

Andrew: I think it's - well, he looks up to Dumbledore as a mentor and I think a father figure in some way, and I think he just feels safe there. I mean, he's in the Headmaster's office, one of the most powerful wizards in the wizarding world. And to see all these important items surrounding him, there's just this sense of security and hope and wisdom.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: It's true.

Micah: No, I think Andrew, you pretty much hit it on the head. I don't have anything to add.

Eric: So, there's - Harry notices then a shimmering light and he tries to place it and he finds a half-open cupboard, and inside the cupboard is the Pensieve. And Harry doesn't want to touch it at first so he pokes it with his wand, but he's, like, "Okay, I have way too much experience, I don't know what this is, I'm not going to touch it." Well, he looks closely and the closer he looks into the Pensieve, he begins to see figures and a circular - what ends up being a courtroom. So, the closer he gets, eventually his nose is touching the Pensieve which is when he actually finds himself sucked completely in. Now this would be kind of out of the ordinary to anybody else, but Harry immediately realizes that he's in a memory, which I thought was interesting but he uses the process of elimination, basically as soon as he gets there he finds himself next to Dumbledore, and Dumbledore doesn't look too much younger so he tries to say, "Hey Dumbledore, I'm sorry I'm in your memory." But Dumbledore doesn't recognize him, so Harry waves his hand in front of Dumbledore, Dumbledore doesn't respond, and Harry's, like, "Oh wait, I've been here before in a memory and this is what this has to be." So, I thought that was really interesting, that Harry is able to use his experience obviously from Riddle's diary when he was in the memory of Hagrid getting caught. What do you guys think of this? He's very sharp at times.

Micah: You mean just in terms of his ability to recognize where he is?

Eric: Yeah, why...

Micah: What kind of intelligence does that take?

Eric: What does it take?

Micah: Well...

Eric: I mean, how often do you find yourself in a memory?

Micah: This is true but...

Andrew: Well, never, in his case. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Yet.

Micah: It obviously plays a larger role later on in the books, but just sort of having that curiosity, though, to stick your head in this thing that you've never really experienced before, and I mean, it is pretty good deduction on his part. But at the same time, I think we don't give Harry enough credit, it's always Hermione's the one who is the one with the smarts, and we don't ever think really that Harry can figure out things on his own but in fact he does, multiple times in the series and this is just one of those examples.

Eric: Hmm. Interesting. All right. Well, I'll give Harry credit with my next point here then. [laughs] The first memory that Harry finds himself into is the trial of Igor Karkaroff, who just won our Dueling Club a couple of minutes ago here on MuggleCast. Karkaroff is being...

Micah: He's still going to jail, though.

Eric: [laughs] He's still going to jail. So, he's brought into the courtroom. It is a courtroom presumably at the Ministry of Magic. He's brought in by some Dementors and strapped to a chair to present evidence against other wizards. And Barty Crouch, Sr. shows up and he's sort of the administrator of this trial, and Karkaroff begins rattling off names of people who he believes to be Death Eaters. Now, it's interesting because Harry is listening to this pretty intently. But the first few names that Karkaroff gives off are actually names of people who have either died or have been captured. And so needless to say, Karkaroff's information that's supposed to sort of free him from Azkaban, essentially, we hear from Mad-Eye Moody who is also there, that Barty Crouch has made a deal. But Harry begins to notice, and it's just referenced several points that Karkaroff is upset that these people are already dead. And he can see the fear, Harry really focuses on the fear on Karkaroff's face, that he does not want to go back to Azkaban for having no useful information at all. And I just thought this was very interesting insight into Harry's character because he almost immediately - it's not questioning, he doesn't necessarily - he doesn't feel like Karkaroff's a bad guy the way he does perhaps with Snape. He just seems to really get into his head and be, like, "Oh, this guy really doesn't want to go back to Azkaban. I can understand that." So...

Andrew: And also, this is the first time you're seeing Karkaroff in a weak state, or a hurt state. I mean, you could actually - vulnerable state, that's what I'm trying to say. So, I think that's striking to Harry, too, because every other time he's seen him, Harry - he's been really angry for one reason or another.

Eric: That's true.

Micah: Snape, though, is a different entity completely, though. I think that if you look at Snape, he's always been on Harry's bad side since day one. And Karkaroff hasn't been nice to Harry, by and large, but he's only known him for, what, a couple of months? So, I think Harry is a little bit less directly connected to Karkaroff than he is to Snape, to kind of draw on that example that you brought up before.

Eric: Okay. So, when the Dementors are in the courtroom, we hear Dumbledore tell Mad-Eye Moody that he doesn't like Dementors - or Mad-Eye Moody is, like, "Oh, I forgot, Albus, you don't like Dementors." And Dumbledore admits this and says that he has long felt - "The Ministry is wrong to ally itself with such creatures." Why doesn't Dumbledore like Dementors?

Andrew: Well, I mean, as we see, they don't always follow the rules. I mean, what was the most recent instance where Dumbledore gets angry that they - wasn't there a time or two where he gets angry at the Dementors for not following rules? Was it because they went on Hogwarts grounds, or something like that?

Eric: Yeah, they didn't follow his rules. Oh, I guess it was the previous year. They're very impulsive, they want souls, they're not really - you can't reason with them, almost, because they're not really of - not of this world. But they are kind of outside the rules of humans.

Andrew: And yeah. I mean, if you just think about it, the Ministry, prior to it falling apart, was an upstanding organization, and to have these dreadful things like Dementors as allies, it's kind of, like, why? They're so - is it - maybe Dumbledore is thinking there must be a better way for...

Eric: Hmm.

Andrew: There must be alternative Dementors that aren't so...

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: ...soul sucking.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Yeah, you ever heard of prison guards? I mean...

[Eric and Micah laugh]

Micah: I understand it adds a different dimension to it, but who's the one who says, "They're among the foulest creatures to walk the earth," or something along those lines? Was that a movie line?

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: Or it could have been in the books, too.

Eric: Yeah, I think it is. But I mean, prison guards - you're right. I think there are so many Aurors that we learn about in this chapter and other chapters, too. Like, prison guards would have to be Aurors, there's no getting out of that. But I think the Dementors add such an interesting dimension because these people are mentally withdrawn and they're feeding on their happy thoughts, in a way.

Micah: Well, I think the other side of it too, though, is that Dumbledore constantly looks for the good in people, so regardless of crimes committed, I think that even whatever is remotely good in these people - because there has to be something somewhere - it's being taken away by the Dementors...

Eric: Oh, that's...

Micah: ...so there's no chance for redemption.

Eric: That's really good. And also, I...

Andrew: That quote was said by Lupin, by the way, in Prisoner of Azkaban.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: Thanks.

Andrew: I looked it up.

Micah: Oh yeah, no e-mails on that!

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: We stopped them right here.

Andrew: I don't know if it's just the book or...

Micah: Don't send e-mails.

Eric: [laughs] No, it's fine, we really don't like your e-mails, people. But no, I thought - well, I guess Dumbledore probably doesn't have that many happy memories himself to relive - or unhappy. Like, Harry hears his parents' death. What do you think Dumbledore hears? Well, probably Ariana, his sister, right? So...

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: ...that can't have been nice. All right. Well, no verdict is given - oh no, I skipped a note, hang on. So, basically Karkaroff - the memory of Karkaroff segues into a new memory and Harry very acutely perceives the difference. It's like - the line in the book is, like, "Harry knew immediately that this was another memory, another time, another place." So, basically Mad-Eye Moody, who actually had both of his eyes in the first memory, now has his magical eye, a broken nose, and Dumbledore is described as being either younger or older as well. And basically the second memory is not in the film, it features Ludo Bagman being taken in or brought in for questioning about information that he passed to Rookwood. Now Rookwood is the guy - Augustus Rookwood is one of the names that Karkaroff had mentioned in the first memory, and now Bagman is being brought in and questioned for passing information that eventually went to the Death Eaters. The interesting thing about this memory, it kind of plays like a press release, almost, because fans of Bagman in the audience are, like, stopping the trial to congratulate him on his most recent Quidditch match. So, it's kind of a joke. I don't really know what else there is with this second memory. What did you guys think while reading this?

Micah: Well, I think obviously it was omitted from the film because Ludo Bagman is omitted from the film. And I think - isn't it later learned that he was under the Imperius Curse and that's why he did in fact pass the information along? It was almost unknowingly that he did that. So, again - I mean, I think this was a time where they were just gathering people to ensure that they could put away as many potential Death Eaters as they could.

Eric: Mhm. Okay...

Micah: That's what I took away from it.

Eric: Yeah. So, well, then the mood really changes between the second and the third memory. The third and final memory that Harry witnesses takes place after Voldemort's downfall, and we learn that Frank and Alice Longbottom were tortured by Death Eaters who were apparently looking to discover the current whereabouts of Voldemort. So, I was confused because I didn't remember the torture of Alice Longbottom taking place after Voldemort's downfall. I had the impression that Voldemort went to find Lily and James Potter as a result of hearing the prophecy, and that he sent his Death Eaters to Frank and Alice Longbottom's to deal with them because both - as we know, both families were potential candidates for the prophecy. But I just had the impression that this happened sooner than after Voldemort had already died. But apparently that wasn't the case, so then my question is, why - if Voldemort keeps things to himself, he doesn't have friends, he doesn't trust people, why target Frank and Alice Longbottom at all?

Micah: I mean, that's an interesting question. So, you're saying that the Longbottoms were tortured post-downfall of Voldemort as opposed to...

Eric: That's what this...

Micah: ...the same night?

Eric: Yeah...

Micah: I...

Eric: ...this book says - well, actually, the reason is given. Barty Crouch, Sr. gives the reason that they were looking for the whereabouts of their master, as the reason why they tortured Frank Longbottom first and then his wife Alice later when Frank wouldn't give.

Micah: Yeah, that's one of those things that I'm afraid to answer because I feel like I'll end up causing...

Eric: Getting an e-mail?

Micah: ...some e-mails to come in, but...

Andrew: I don't - what's the significance of it not happening sooner?

Eric: Well, the fact that - why do they target Frank and Alice? They wouldn't know where Voldemort was any better than any other defender of Voldemort. It's almost like...

Andrew: Well, I mean, maybe it's just that then, they were just getting desperate to find some information so they were going after anyone they could. I mean, the Death Eaters never really ever have a justifiable excuse for the most part. I mean...

Eric: That's true.

Andrew: ...for a normal witch or wizard to find a good justification.

Micah: Yeah, Bellatrix is just off her rocker.

Andrew: And - yeah, right, Bellatrix is just nuts, too.

Eric: That's true.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: She lost the love of her life, she's going to go crazy, you're right. Well, why then were Frank and Alice taken? Because again, they're the strongest witches and wizards. I think it's said that they were relieved, that everybody thought since Voldemort was gone, everything was safe. But Frank and Alice Longbottom - they're still the best at what they do, they were in hiding from Voldemort, they were fighting Voldemort, and they thrice defied them, let's not forget. So, why were they taken so easily and tortured by these amateur - or not amateur, but - these Death Eaters who aren't Voldemort. If they can defend themselves against Voldemort, you'd think they could handle a couple of Death Eaters, right? Especially if one of them is a teenage boy, Barty Crouch, Jr.

Andrew: They could have just been caught off guard, too.

Eric: Yeah. So, mild plot point, Barty Crouch, Jr. proclaims his innocence this whole trial. He even appeals to his mother, he says, "Mother, you know I'm innocent. I'm innocent. I didn't do it. I didn't do it, mother." Barty Crouch's mother, Barty Crouch, Sr.'s wife is sitting right next to Barty Crouch Sr. and is crying and leaning back and forth, and eventually she faints, which is a plot point for later. So, not many more points for this chapter. We did, however - a couple of episodes of MuggleCast, we kind of petitioned the listeners to send in essays on the chapters that we will be doing. Andrew, do you want to talk about that?

Andrew: Oh, I'd love to. Well, I mean, we have an essay here from Rachel M. and she contrasts Harry's reaction to Barty Crouch, Jr. in his Pensieve experience, with his continued suspicions for Snape. She wrote to us:

"Snape, who from the first instance is described as ugly, with greasy hair and a hooked nose, looks the part of the villain and although his unpleasant behavior disguises his heroic actions, Harry is quick to judge appearances as real. Throughout the series, Harry encounters many characters that are not what they appear to be, most notably by this point in the series, Sirius Black, and yet when faced with the choice Harry chooses to believe Snape is villainous. Barty Crouch, Jr. on the other hand is described as 'a boy in his late teens, who looked nothing short of petrified. He was shivering, his straw-colored hair all over his face, his freckled skin milk-white' This description of a fair young boy contrasts harshly against the dark solemn Snape, and his appearance of fear and proclamations of innocence easily sway Harry into believing him to be guiltless."

And that's just the classic lesson, don't judge a book by its cover.

Eric: As Harry does.

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: And that's really her point in this essay, so we'll post that essay - I believe Noah will be posting it, is that right, Micah?

Micah: Yeah, if it's not already posted, and obviously we'll put a link to it in the show notes. She does a great job...

Andrew: Excellent.

Micah: ...with contrasting these two, and yeah, so thanks for sending that in.

Eric: Yeah, really, I think it was good. It caught us in the right time, obviously, before we recorded the episode, so please continue to do that, too, because I liked reading this, and I think incorporating it into the chapter was pretty easy to do because we were talking about Harry and Karkaroff, and how he felt about him. Last note for the chapter: after the third memory, Harry sees two Dumbledores next to him. [laughs] One of them is the Dumbledore from the past and the other one is the Dumbledore from the present who has come back from the walk on the grounds. Dumbledore asks Harry, "Shall we?" and takes him back out of the Pensieve. They do have a talk and we find out a little bit more about memories, but I actually wanted to break down the word "Pensieve" because this is kind of what interested me most about the chapter. Sure, a lot of plot happens, but the word "Pensieve" could possibly come from a combination, a mash up, of two words, the first being "pensive," which is an adjective, it means, "brooding, or deeply or seriously thoughtful; a thoughtful or reflective state, especially if sad or melancholic." So, we've heard of people being pensive - described as being pensive, a very pensive reaction means to be deep in thought. And then the second word "sieve" - so S-I-E-V-E - is a noun, and "sieve, or sifter, separates wanted elements from unwanted material using a filter such as a mesh or net." The example is - "to distinguish and separate out," "sift through the job candidates" is a sieve. People use - Andrew, I know you mentioned cooking, so you use a sieve in baking at all, with flour?

Andrew: No, can't say I do.

Eric: Well, if you did bake, you certainly might use a sieve.

[Micah laughs]

Eric: And so those two words, "pensive" and "sieve" make "Pensieve" which is a memory sifter. [laughs]

Andrew: I was also doing my own word-meanings research the other day, and did you know "Dumbledore" means "bumblebee"?

Eric: I did. It's French, isn't it?

Andrew: Oh, I didn't know that.

Eric: Oh.

Andrew: So, I wanted to share.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That took me about an hour to figure out.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: You could have gone to our word origins section on MuggleNet.

Eric: Our Name Origins page.

Micah: Yeah, Name Origins.



Chapter-by-Chapter: "The Third Task"


Andrew: Oh, darn. I'm just kidding. All right, Micah, Chapter 31, "The Third Task." Number three, the big one, the finale.

Micah: The third task, yeah. I was able to make it through the three tasks before this, remember there was...

Eric: And the unexpected task.

Micah: The unexpected task, yeah, so the three before this. And so the chapter starts out with the trio discussing what Harry saw in the Pensieve and everything as we've talked about so far, from Snape being a Death Eater to Bagman passing along information. And I thought it was interesting with Hermione because you see for a moment she's kind of got her head in her hands, and I thought it had a little bit to do with Snape because when you look at Snape, this is really the first indication that he's not who Hermione necessarily thought he was. She put a lot of trust in him because Dumbledore put a lot of trust in him. Now you find out that he is a Death Eater, or former Death Eater, so I think it was a little bit of a knock on her that Harry and Ron, in a way, were right and she was wrong.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, she hates it.

Eric: Yeah, that he was actually a Death Eater. I missed that point, actually, in the previous chapter, that Dumbledore confirms Snape in fact was a Death Eater at one point and then says that he changed sides, went spy for his own - at great personal cost to himself.

Micah: Right. They also discussed Fudge's accusations against Madame Maxime and we talked about that a little bit in the last episode, how Fudge is willing to really turn a blind eye towards being somewhat racist because the easy option is not necessarily to go and look after a Death Eater, former Death Eater, Karkaroff being responsible for this, but in fact, oh, it's got to be the half-giant, it's got to be the half-breed who's responsible for doing this. So, a little bit of bigotry on his part, which somebody in his position of power shouldn't have, but as we've seen through history they traditionally do. And as Harry goes up to bed after they're done discussing, we really start to see the effects of Voldemort on the rest of the wizarding world. Harry has this moment where he looks over at Neville and he realizes that Voldemort has destroyed Neville's family. He can't imagine what it's like to have two parents who don't even recognize you, they don't know who you are. And he also - this goes back to your point, a little bit, Eric, before, when he has that moment almost feeling sorry for Karkaroff going back to Azkaban. He thinks about the Crouchs, too, and how Voldemort destroyed their family by recruiting Barty Crouch, Jr., so all this ties back in the end to Voldemort and how he's really destroyed so many families throughout the wizarding world. Do you - I mean, what do you think about that? I mean, obviously he kills people, but even sort of on the Death Eaters' side, he's ripped apart those families, too. I mean, look at how it plays out with the Malfoys throughout the series.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, it's true. Voldemort - that's a really good point, actually, because even the people - I think the payoff is obviously the Malfoys where we do see - even their family, they despise him once the end of the series arrives. But yeah, I think - not just that Voldemort is death and destruction personified, that's not enough. The fact of the matter is the people who support him go to such lengths to support him, and I really feel that that's what Jo is - that she's obviously aware of that in her writing...

Andrew: Well...

Eric: ...to draw the allegory for whatever purposes.

Andrew: Well, I think the allegory is what's going on in the real world. There's people who dedicate themselves to world leaders, as we see kind of what is going on right now in the Middle East with - I mean, there's people rebelling but there are also people who are really dedicated to their leader no matter how corrupt they may be.

Micah: But another thing I wanted to point out in this chapter that may go a little bit unnoticed is a lot of the training that the trio is doing in particular for this third task really prepares them for Dumbledore's Army and the teaching that goes on in The Order of the Phoenix.

Andrew: Oh, true!

Micah: The Impediment Curse, the Reductor Curse - we know that Ginny uses that in the Department of Mysteries - the Shield Charm, and there's a bunch more as it goes on, but I thought - there's the ability of J.K. Rowling to kind of lay that groundwork in advance.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, there are going to be - but is it late in the game for all these charms? I mean, this is really the first time that they're actually going to just be attacked by stuff, right? I mean, they have to prepare for everything and then that - I want to say, the shock of really having to face a magical creature in this third task is actually what spawns them to do some of their most brilliant studies.

Andrew: I mean - well, again, remember, they're fourteen, fifteen years old.

Micah: Yeah, exactly. [laughs] That's what I was going to say.

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: They're not - when you're in school, I don't think you're at the level yet where you're going to be expecting to have to use this level of spell against other people.

Andrew: Yeah. I mean, and that's why there's an age limit on the Triwizard Tournament...

Eric: Oh, okay.

Andrew: ...because these young-ins really shouldn't have to practice these spells...

Eric: Okay, that's a good point.

Andrew: ...I don't think. I feel like at least one time every episode we have to remind ourselves...

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Eric: That they're fourteen. Lately, yes, that's been the case, I think.

Micah: So, as the chapter goes on, J.K. Rowling keeps referring to the confidence that Harry has with this tournament - or, sorry, with this particular task, and why do guys think that is? Why is he more confident with the third task? Moody gives him a little bit of encouragement in the last few chapters, he is training a lot more as opposed to thinking about how the first two tasks went.

[Eric laughs]

Micah: It was more just, "Oh, they're dragons. Oh, shoot, how am I going to get past the dragon?" and then he was completely unprepared for the second task, if not for Dobby, and - or is it just more that the fact that the tournament ís going to be over? "This is it. I'm more confident because it's over."

Andrew: Yeah, I think he sees - yeah, he sees light at the end of the tunnel, he sees that at his age he can take on these tasks since he successfully completed the first two. So, yeah, I think he's just feeling more confident because of what he's done so far.

Eric: And I think Harry has the attitude where he sees that things - not just the light at the end of the tunnel, but he sees that things are coming to a head, where he's had that dream again and he's asked Dumbledore, "Do you think it was real?" and Dumbledore says, "I would even say it was probable." He feels like the reason he's the fourth champion in the Triwizard Tournament is going to be explained to him. It's kind of - it's not - well, it is the formula of the books to have the [laughs] conclusion at the end after a great mystery but I think that Harry really does feel that things are going to be explained and that he can tackle them. I think he's got this determination because, again, he's seen how these families have been ripped apart. Neville's is only the most recent example, by Voldemort, and he just really has this desire to end Voldemort which has just been building.

Micah: Yeah, and kind of moving on with this chapter, during this training session, what happens is - as a plot point, they see Malfoy out on the grounds almost like he's whispering into a walkie talkie, and Hermione kind of berates Ron and Harry and says, "How many times do I have to tell you that stuff doesn't work here?"

[Eric laughs]

Micah: And the next day we see this article written by Rita Skeeter and it quotes Malfoy, and it also quotes the incident that took place in Divination. And I thought Rita Skeeter made a huge mistake by saying that she saw him leaving the class in this state of mind. Why not just say that she heard from a student or she actually quotes one of the students who were in the class? Why not do that? Why say that you were physically there? Because by doing that, I think that gave herself away to Hermione. I know you've got to do that to advance the plot, but...

Andrew: Maybe she just wants to make the students look bad.

Eric: [laughs] Well, I feel like the suspicion was growing because from directly quoting students like Pansy Parkinson after being banished from Hogwarts grounds, she is already drawing attention to herself. I don't think anybody else would have been able to gather the secret about her, as Hermione was able to, after - and the other thing is Hermione is taking it very personal because there was that interview about Krum, or that exposé about Krum and Hermione's relationship, and so Hermione, above all, is just really curious and really focused on determining what's going on. But I think Skeeter is just completely lost in the emotion of wanting a story and smearing people. She has completely forgotten how to be covert about it, and at this point, is writing things like "seeing him leave" and "was there in person", and it's really not the smart thing to do, but it allows, yeah, the plot to advance. But also it gives Hermione the key she needs. I don't think any other witch would have been able to figure it out, though. I think Dumbledore - maybe if Dumbledore's attention were on it, he could figure it out, but I don't think anybody else would.

Micah: Yeah, and you see as it plays out, Harry makes a comment about Hermione, "You're supposed to be the one figuring out if there is any bugging going on," and that's really when the lightbulb goes off in Hermione's head. I was just wondering, did you guys catch that the first time? I know it's been a while since we all first read Goblet of Fire, but did you say to yourself - did you connect the pieces of the puzzle?

Andrew: No.

Eric: Bugging. No, because it's not like it's a British term and I'm American, so growing up I didn't understand it. I know what bugging is, but it's kind of an odd word to choose where you're, like, "Oh, to bug something is to have a security microphone," but then she's a bug, so she can hear in. It's brilliant, is what it is, but it's almost too brilliant. It's almost too far above your heads. Later, when Hermione comes and reveals it to Harry, "Oh! Bugging!" we're all like - as the audience we're, like, "Oh! Bugging!"

Micah: So, after they're - this is all taking place in the Great Hall when they're having this conversation, and then Harry finds out that the champion's families are there to support them. And Harry kind of goes through this period where he's unsure as to whether or not he wants to go and join all the families that have shown up to support the champions because he's saying to himself, "Oh, the Dursleys? Are they really going to show up? Are they really going to be here to support me?" And I think there was almost a moment where, as much as he detests the Dursleys, he was almost hoping that they were going to be there. Am I the only one that saw it that way? Because...

Andrew: I don't know. Surely they were - the Dursleys were approached, they were asked, "Hey, do you want to come to Harry's..."

Eric: [laughs] It could be the last day of his life.

Andrew: "...third task." Yeah, you could watch him die!

Micah: Then they would want to be there, though, wouldn't they? [laughs]

Andrew: To watch him die, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, but they're Muggles. Well, if Hermione was a champion, would her parents be there? I just - it would be interesting. I think the way Harry is feeling, though, he would like to share his trouble with people, it's why he has friends, it's why he loves because he could use that support right now. I mean, he's about to get himself involved in a really life-and-death matter.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: So...

Micah: Well, yeah, I think part of him did hope that the Dursleys were there, but I thought it was kind of cool that it was Mrs. Weasley and Bill that show up. And there is this quote on page 616, where Fleur Delacour, Harry noticed, was "eyeing Bill with great interest over her mother's shoulder." So, all the way back in Goblet of Fire the ground work is being laid for this.

Eric: For Bill and Fleur?

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Do you think Bill affects Fleur the way Veela affect boys?

Andrew: Definitely.

Eric: Because she seems to have this look, right? This "eyeing Bill with great interest." She doesn't even know who he is, but she sees him and she's, like, [in fake French accent] "Oh, hot man, yes." [laughs] [changes to normal voice] Well, what is it about Bill? Is it his long hair? A guy with long hair turns her on?

Andrew: Love is love, Eric.

Eric: All right.

Andrew: You'll learn someday.

Eric: All right.

Micah: All right. So, we get some cool back story, I'll just run through this real quick. When they're all together, Bill talks about his time at Hogwarts, as does Mrs. Weasley, and there's a story that Mrs. Weasley tells about the Fat Lady, and how she came back late one night and couldn't get into the common room. So, it's revealed that she was out with Mr. Weasley, taking a little bit of a stroll, whatever that means, use your imaginations.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: It means stroll, Micah.

Micah: Uh-huh, yeah.

Eric: It just means stroll.

Micah: A little trip down to the Black Lake?

Eric: I've got to tell you, that birch tree by the lake has probably seen more action than the last five directors of Bruce Willis movies, I'll tell you that much.

Micah: Yeah. So - yeah, but it's mentioned that Mr. Weasley actually has the marks to prove it, that they were out late past their curfew. So, it is true, we hear Filch mention it from time to time in the series, but clearly they did used to beat the students. If you're talking about marks to prove it, clearly this Pringle dude, who was...

[Eric laughs]

Micah: ...the caretaker there...

Andrew: Yeah, it's good they stopped doing that.

Micah: Yeah, I think...

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That wouldn't have been fun to read.

Micah: Yeah. Ogg used to be the gamekeeper and the Whomping Willow - I know this may have been a point that a lot of people wrote in on, when it was written. It wasn't there when Mrs. Weasley went to school, so I want to know, how old is she? I mean, she's older than Lupin now, based on this information. She's older than Harry's parents and all the Marauders. And how long does it take [laughs] a Whomping Willow to - unless it was just put there in its full form?

Eric: Form.

Micah: Because you would think it would take a while - it takes years for trees to grow.

Eric: Yeah. I mean, well, fortunately with magic you just do Engorgio or there are shrinking solutions that de-age, so I think with magic you have a little bit of leeway. But as far as her age, I think ages is another thing where Jo - Jo has said she's not good at math, and so when there are these characters that are a little bit older, but then old enough to not have attended Hogwarts at the same time, but not much younger either, I think it's one of those things where it's just in between. The Lexicon will probably have timelines.

Micah: All right, so we finally get to the third task. [laughs] Most of the chapters, it's the buildup to it as opposed to the task itself. And as the task begins, Harry doesn't have too much trouble getting through this maze and obviously we learn later that it's because of Moody/Barty Crouch, Jr. But it's interesting, he encounters a Boggart, he encounters some mist that flips the maze upside-down, and then he faces a Blast-Ended Skrewt, and this is all prior to Krum - him finding Krum performing this Unforgivable Curse on Cedric. So, not too much for him to encounter and I think that maybe should have raised a little bit of suspicion on people's parts.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: And we get to the point where they're able to, together, overcome Krum, who we find out later was put under the Imperius Curse. And Cedric goes ahead and he shoots up these red sparks into the air, and I was wondering, how can he does this? I mean, because it is coming from his wand, so it almost signifies that he's left the tournament, right? Not Krum, because it's not Krum who is giving in.

Eric: Send up his wand.

Micah: Not only that, but how can he essentially forfeit on behalf of another student? That doesn't make sense to me.

Eric: Right. Yeah, I got the same impression where they're told, "Release sparks and you will be picked up," but it's you, it's your wand. So, when he does it for somebody else - you can understand he's warning that there's a champion down, that they are found at this location, so it has its uses. But it is his forfeiture, it's not anybody else's because you...

Micah: Right.

Eric: ...shouldn't be able to do that for somebody else. It's one of those...

Micah: They talk about, "We don't want them to get eaten by a Blast-Ended Skrewt," or something like that, but by Cedric doing it, it should have been Cedric who was disqualified from the tournament because it doesn't make any sense. I mean, that's just my opinion on it and who is to say then that they didn't think that Cedric attacked Krum? If there's a champion down and he is the one shooting sparks into the air? So, I don't know, just a little bit of a weird plot development there. But they go their separate ways, Harry encounters the Sphinx and is able to solve the riddle which - that riddle with the spider, that created a million different editorials and other things that were written about Snape and it went on forever. I know we probably spent a whole episode discussing that.

Andrew: Probably.

Eric: I don't know.

Micah: Maybe we can go find it somewhere.

Eric: Maybe this was supposed to be our whole episode [laughs] devoted to the poem.

Micah: Well, it - guess what they end up encountering as they make their way to the cup? Because once Harry gets past the Sphinx, he meets up again with Cedric and he sees Cedric running ahead of him, and Cedric gets attacked by a spider, which is the clue, or it's the answer to the clue that the Sphinx gave, so they are able to defeat that spider. And after much debate between the two of them, they decide to go ahead and take the cup together.

Andrew: Okay.

Micah: And that's where the chapter ends.

Andrew: I wonder what would have happened if they hadn't helped each other out with these other tasks, who would have ended up taking the cup. Or - yeah, who would have ended up touching the cup...

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: ...to win.

Micah: Well...

Andrew: If I were Harry - I think Harry's a little - I think Harry would have given it to Cedric.

Micah: Well, he tried. I mean - but - and especially because he has a messed up leg at the end of this...

Andrew: That's true. Right, right.

Micah: ...chapter. And Harry also brought up the point that this would give Hufflepuff more glory than it has had in who knows how many years.

Andrew: All right, next week we will get back to three chapters because, according to Eric, they're all short, so we'll look at...

Micah: They're never short when Eric does them. [laughs]



Listener Tweets: The Making of Harry Potter Studio Tour


Andrew: 32 - [laughs] so 32, 33, and 34. So, if you have any comments about those chapters, if you would like to write an editorial that we'll feature on MuggleNet and MuggleCast, feel free to send them in. Now, today's Twitter question: "Do you plan on visiting The Making of Harry Potter studio tour at Leavesden in the U.K.?" Here's a couple of the responses we got. From knowlson3193:

"I will definitely be visiting the studio tour as I think it will give a more authentic reaction than that of the 'Wizarding World'."

That's pretty true. You won't get more authentic than the sets themselves that you see on screen. smileysammyr says:

"Duh, of course I'm going to go! It's a 'Harry Potter' set! I'll go as soon as I get my passport."

A lot of people are going to have to [laughs] get passports for this. mgray21 wrote:

"I would love to visit the HP studio tour. Unfortunately, living in the U.S., it's expensive to fly overseas. W.B. should come up with contests for free trips."

tickledlemonade wrote:

"Definitely, I've always wanted to see the sets in real life and it's a lot closer than Orlando for people who live in Europe!"

That's very true as well. And finally, EmzBemz wrote:

"Yeah, I defo will because I live in London and I think that it is a must for any 'Harry Potter' fan. I'd feel like part of HP history. Smiley."



Make the Music Connection


So, those are some of the responses we got from people who follow us. Our Twitter account is Twitter.com/MuggleCast, and we use that account to let you know when we're recording the next show, when the show will be available, what we're planning for the next show, etc. etc. And now it's time for another fun segment, as promised earlier, Make the Music Connection. I have two songs here, each for one of the lovely co-hosts I am speaking with. Micah, are you aware of the hot artist right now, Adele?

Micah: I've heard of her, yeah.

Andrew: She's pretty hot right now. Here is your song.

["Rolling in the Deep" by Adele plays]

Micah: It's a great song.

Andrew: Thank you.

[Song continues]

Andrew: So, this is "Rolling in the Deep" by Adele. I'll give you some more lyrics: "We could have had it all..."

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: "...rolling in the deep and you played it to the beat."

Micah: Yeah, it seems pretty insinuating. [laughs] But just the tone of it, like that drum beating, it's kind of like a war drum, almost...

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: ...I thought. And it would be cool to have that as the battle is about to take place.

Andrew: Ooh.

Micah: Kind of ignoring the lyrics a little bit, but...

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Eric: [sings] "We could have had it all."

Micah: Yeah, yeah, okay, we'll take a pass on that. But just kind of the tone of the song, it seems like two sides are about to go to war with each other and it would be kind of interesting to see it played during that.

Andrew: Well, it's kind of what Adele is writing about, you know? Her versus this man who left her. Okay...

Micah: She sounds like she would win, though, in a fight.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: She looks tough, I think she could take on a guy. All right. Eric, I understand you were recently at a Lady Gaga concert.

Eric: Oh no.

Andrew: Lady Gaga, I understand, is one of your favorite all-time artists, you've been moved and inspired by her. And of course, her new...

Eric: Definitely to look at. Definitely looking at her.

Andrew: Her new single...

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: You like looking at her? Right, okay, that's - well, she has a new single out, "Born This Way," as I'm sure you saw her perform, and you need to make the connection.

["Born This Way" by Lady Gaga plays]

Andrew: Put 'em up, Sirius! Put your paws up!

[Song continues]

Andrew: Yeah!

[Song continues]

Andrew: "I'm beautiful in my own way. God makes no mistakes. I was born this way." Eric, make the connection, please.

Eric: This is Luna Lovegood's theme song. I was thinking...

Andrew: Luna Lovegood? [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah, because I was thinking of her relationship with her mother. She's like, "My mama told me I was -" it's just...

Andrew: Mmm.

Eric: It's like - I think - Luna does her own thing. Luna, above - I was going to say Neville and Dumbledore's Army, where they're all, like, "We were this way, we're going to fight, we're going to - this is what we believe in, this is who we are." And then I thought it would just kind of be Luna. But I think, in general, more broad, Dumbledore's Army, it's their world and they're taking it back.

Andrew: I think it really could apply to any outcast or minority in the Harry Potter...

Eric: Yes, but my comparison is better.

Andrew: ...books. [laughs] I was also thinking Hagrid, Hagrid would be a good one.

Eric: [laughs] Hagrid's theme.

Andrew: [poorly imitating Hagrid] I was born this way!

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: That was my bad Hagrid impression. We need to get Ben to sing "Born This Way" as Hagrid.

Eric: As Hagrid.

Andrew: I think that would be funny.

Eric: I agree. I completely agree. Maybe at Leaky.



Muggle Mail: Dumbledore's Master Plan


Andrew: So, that's how we play Make the Music Connection and now it's time for Muggle Mail. And this first one is about episode - our previous episode. It's from Lucy, 16, of Toronto, Canada:

"I was just listening to your most recent episode, number 221. Andrew was talking about how Dumbledore should have been more careful about setting up the third task now that he knew that Voldemort was getting stronger. I was just thinking that maybe Dumbledore actually wanted Harry to meet with Voldemort and that this was essentially all part of Dumbledore's master plan. When Harry returned to Hogwarts from his trip to the graveyard, he tells Dumbledore that Voldemort had used Harry's blood to resurrect himself. After Harry finishes telling this part of the story, J.K. Rowling writes, "For a fleeting instant, Harry thought he saw a gleam of something like triumph in Dumbledore's eyes. But in the next second, Harry was sure he had imagined it." Could Dumbledore have possibly known at that time that Voldemort would attempt to take Harry's blood, and therefore did not try to prevent fake Moody from planting the Portkey in the middle of the maze? After all, it was this event that allowed Harry to live in the seventh book. Voldemort took in part of Lily's protection, therefore tethering Harry to life while Voldemort himself lived. I'd love to hear your thoughts. I'm a relatively recent addition to your league of faithful listeners, and I'm loving it so far. Keep up the great work! Lots of love, Lucy."

So, we've talked about this before, Dumbledore having that gleam of triumph...

Eric: Yes.

Andrew: ...in his eye, we've always speculated what it could be.

Eric: Well, it's a good question, but I think that this is - this is taking it - this is crossing my personal line, the line I personally draw to see how far Dumbledore will go. Earlier in the chapter that we did for this episode, "The Pensieve," it's kind of questionable whether or not Dumbledore intended for Harry to find the Pensieve because he just leaves Harry alone in his office with the door open to the Pensieve. That, I can see. I don't think that Dumbledore would be so willing to have Harry and Voldemort confront each other, definitely not enough to just ignore fake Moody into causing the events that happened. I think - sure, Dumbledore's gleam of triumph happens and it is all because Harry can survive, then, after that, but I think Dumbledore, like anybody, would prefer Voldemort not to come back to life...

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: ...in a body, much more so than having Harry have a reunion with him and Cedric Diggory dying. Dumbledore loses a lot by Voldemort coming back to full power, as - which happens...

Andrew: Mhm.

Eric: ...so I don't think...

Andrew: Yeah, he doesn't want any student to die under his watch. All right. Micah, next e-mail, please.



Muggle Mail: Wizarding Marriage


Micah: Next e-mail comes from Lucy Rayner, 18, of the U.K., and she wants to know about wizard marriage. She says:

"A weird and kind of random question came to me today and I thought, 'I know! I'll ask the MuggleCasters!' Do you think that when wizards and witches get married they have to make the Unbreakable Vow to say that they'll stand by one another forever? It seems to me that if you were not willing to do so then you shouldn't really be getting married, and so it seems like a good idea to stop people getting married just because society says they should, because they just want a wedding, etc. In effect, getting married is the equivalent of making the Unbreakable Vow, ''til death do us part.' However there are many, many cases in the real world where there is a legitimate reason for ending a marriage and it would seem kind of unfair to prevent this. I know it's a sort of random question but I really wanted to know what you thought. Hope you are all happy and smiling."

Andrew: I think we should get a look at the wizarding vows because I think it'd be interesting to see if they're the same as the ones in the wizarding world - or, the Muggle world.

Micah: Yeah, Unbreakable Vow, I think that's a little too much. I mean...

Andrew: Why? Are you afraid you wouldn't be able to uphold it, Micah?

[Eric laughs]

Micah: Well, things happen. I mean, what if your...

Andrew: Things happen?!

Micah: What if your witch cheats on you? You're not...

Andrew: Well, right.

Micah: You can't get out of...

Andrew: That's why you have...

Micah: Yeah, but - so - I mean...

Eric: But then she'd be dead.

Micah: ...but how does it work, though? Oh...

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: ...I see. So...

Eric: Because she - but then there's just that fear that doesn't need to exist.

Micah: But then she's gone. I mean...

Eric: Yeah, but - [laughs] then she's gone. Yeah, well...

[Andrew laughs]

Eric: ...you'd always be worried about being unfaithful because you're - I think it adds a complication. I think it's a good question, it's a very good question, but I don't think it would be in practice simply because it's too much. It's too - people do change, events happen, things happen, and people need to be allowed to grow apart. It's part of human interaction.

Andrew: Mmm. I would not date you guys. Ladies, I hope you're listening to what these two are saying.

[Micah laughs]

Andrew: Eric, next e-mail, please.



Muggle Mail: Dobby Stealing Gillyweed


Eric: All right, fine. This e-mail comes from Megan, 17, of Minnesota. She says:

"In Episode 221 of MuggleCast, Eric was wondering why Dobby would steal Gillyweed from Snape. I do not think that Dobby took the Gillyweed himself, but that it was given to him by Barty Crouch, Jr. He knew that Harry had not yet figured out how to go underwater. He also thought that it would be suspicious if Mad-Eye Moody gave Harry the solution to another task, so he gave the Gillyweed to Dobby, who he knew that Harry would trust. He saw the socks Dobby had made at the Yule Ball. Just thought that I clear this up. You guys are great! Megan."

Micah: So - but I think Dobby...

[Andrew laughs]

Micah: ...would steal from him anyway. Yeah, I mean...

Eric: Yeah, Dobby...

Micah: ...I think Dobby would do almost anything for Harry.

Andrew: That's true, yeah.

Micah: So...



Muggle Mail: Wizarding World of Harry Potter Tips


Andrew: Next e-mail from Tom. I'm not going to read the whole thing. He just wants to know - can you do - the best way to see the World of Harry Potter at Universal in a day. He's taking his kids there and he just wants to know what he shouldn't miss. I think - all of us having been there, I think it's fair to say you will be able to get it all done in one day. The Wizarding World you can definitely get done in one day. There will be lines, but the park is open long enough where if you get there in the morning and you stay there until close if you have to, you'll be able to get on everything, experience everything in the Wizarding World. As for the rest of the park, it may take an extra day or two.

Eric: Mhm.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, it depends on what you want to do. I mean, like you said, we've all been there, but I think - depending on how old your kids are, I think the rides are probably more geared towards teenagers, right? I mean, with the exception of the Hippogriff ride, roller-coaster.

Eric: Well, that's one-third of the park. We can't over-generalize here.

Andrew: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: But, I mean, definitely go and eat in the Three Broomsticks...

Eric: Yeah...

Micah: ...that's always a lot of fun.

Eric: ...don't miss the food, that's my advice.

Micah: Go check out all the shops and stuff that they have there, get some Butterbeer.

Andrew: Yeah, but you will be able to do all this in one day.

Micah: Oh yeah, no question.

Andrew: I don't think - yeah.

Micah: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Micah: The lines have shortened from what it seems the papers have reported.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: And just...

Andrew: They'll be back in the summertime, too, though, I think...

Eric: ...most of the fun...

Andrew: ...so...

Eric: ...comes from...

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: ...being in the park, just sitting around, and...

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: ...definitely the food, and the environment.

Andrew: Yeah, the atmosphere is really - there's wizards walking around, there's the music, the themes from the movies over the years.

Eric: Yeah. And also, he added a post script here that I thought was hilarious. He says:

"Can you also make sure it is warm in Florida? We have had way too much snow in New Jersey this winter."

Andrew: It will be warm. You don't have to worry about that.

Eric: We'll see what we can do, right? I mean, right, fellas? We'll get together and...

Micah: [laughs] Yeah.

Eric: ...make sure it's not snowing.

Micah: We'll take care of that for you.

Eric: [laughs] Yeah.

Micah: Well - yeah, and talk to the train - the Hogwarts conductor. He's always a - he's a funny dude.

Andrew: He's an attraction in himself, as I've said before.

Micah: Yeah. So...



Birthday Shout-Out


Andrew: And, finally, just a birthday wish. Claire, 17, from Oxford, Ohio, said her sister, Molly, is a huge fan of the show as is she, and her nineteenth birthday is March 10th, and so Happy Birthday Molly! Love, Claire, Micah, Eric, and Andrew.

Micah: Of course! Happy Birthday!

Andrew: Oh, she says singing would also be greatly appreciated.

Micah: No.

Andrew: [sings] "Happy birthday to you."

Eric: [sings] Do do do do do.



Show Close


Andrew: Before you turn off the show today after hearing my singing voice, we'd like to remind you that we're going to be at LeakyCon! LeakyCon.com, July 13th through the 17th in Orlando, Florida. We're going to be doing podcasts, and hopefully within the next couple of months, we'll tell you exactly when those podcasts are taking place. But no matter what, it's going to be a fantastic time. There's going to be the ball, the party in the park, tons of great panels all going in depth in Harry Potter, it's going to be so much fun. So, visit LeakyCon.com, and when you register, use referral code "Muggle" and we cannot wait to see you there. It's going to be an absolute blast. And also, another plug for my podcast, HYPE, the new show that I do with MuggleCast host Ben, who's also going to be at LeakyCon. [laughs] We keep forgetting to bring that up. Visit HYPEPodcast.com, and you'll get to hear the intelligent ramblings of Ben and I. And we're soon going to be moving to a weekly format, which I haven't done for a podcast in a while.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: So...

Micah: Well, you could if you wanted to. [laughs]

Andrew: And we may also do video, so I'm going to have to start wearing clothes when I podcast, as well. So...

Eric: Oh, that's a shame.

Micah: You don't wear clothes when we podcast?

Andrew: I don't, but I speak for myself. And the final plug today, for MuggleCast.com, you're going to find all the information you need about each and every show. You're going to find more links to our sponsors as well as our Twitter which is Twitter.com/MuggleCast, our Facebook which is Facebook.com/MuggleCast, and also, please follow us on Tumblr if you use Tumblr. There's two great fans, Allie and Angel, who run the account. MuggleCast.Tumblr.com, and you'll get little updates about the show there. Fan art, little clips, they do a really good job running it. So...

Eric: I think they favor you, Andrew, [laughs] if I don't...

Andrew: Why?

Eric: They just - they tend to post - the amount of Andrew Sims content on that Tumblr.

Andrew: Well, I'm most interesting.

Eric: That's true.

Andrew: I'm most interesting.

Eric: That's true, okay.

Andrew: [laughs] I'm just kidding.

Micah: And, well - and I was going to say something about our next episode, but I'm not sure - there's a good chance that there might be a trailer...

Andrew: Oh, please. [laughs]

Micah: ...that will come between now and our next scheduled episode.

Andrew: Don't get your hopes up! That's all I have to say.

Eric: What if the trailer is just J.K. Rowling coming on screen [laughs] and being, like, "Hey!"

Micah: Pen and paper are her priority? I wonder if that's a little dirty slang or something like that, like pen and paper are her priority.

Andrew: Oh, Micah.

Eric: That was not dirty slang.

Andrew: Haven't you've talked enough crap on Jo today? [laughs]

Micah: No.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Thanks everyone for listening! I'm Andrew Sims.

Eric: I'm Eric Scull.

Micah: And I'm Ben Schoen - no, I'm Micah Tannenbaum.

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: We'll see you next time for Episode 223! Goodbye everybody.

Eric: 223?

Micah: Bye.


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Written by: The Transcribers