Charms And Nonverbal Spells

Andrew: So, Harry, Ron, and Hermione move on to the Charms lessons, where we see that Hermione is a big, fat know-it-all.

Jamie: Wingardium Leviosa!...

Andrew: Wingardium Leviosa! Wingardium Levi-O-sa!

Laura: You're saying it wrong, Andrew!

Eric: It's Levi-O-sa! Not Levio-SA!

Laura: There you go!

Jamie: You know when you do nonverbal spells, do you have to say the word in your mind, or does it just happen?

Eric: I don't know. That's just like saying, you know? I don't know.

Andrew: You have to say it in your mind, don't you? You have to think it, right?

Eric: There's like this... Yeah, but you have to say it correctly. Nonverbal spells said wrong could - I don't even know.

Jamie: What happens if you just think it? Do you just think, "I want this door to open," you just point your wand at it. The thing about Wizard Baruffio, I don't actually understand that. Why did he end up with a buffalo on his chest? Because he said...

Eric: I was just thinking that! I mean, everybody, every American, "Fl..."

Jamie: So, it would be, okay, "Swish and fl...," no, "Fwish and slick."

Laura: No, he wasn't talking about the Wingardium Leviosa spell specifically.

Jamie: Oh. Oh, right. Cool.

Laura: He was just being...

Ben: Right.

Jamie: Oh, okay.

Eric: "And saying the magic words properly is very important, too - never forget Wizard Baruffio, who said 's' instead of 'f' and found himself on the floor with a buffalo on his chest."

Jamie: Oh.

Jamie: I think it was funny, and it was cute, but I didn't really understand what that was...

Jamie: See...

Eric: That's from pg. 171 of the US edition.

Ben: No.

Eric: It's just really funny to contemplate where "s" instead of "f" would really have frewed him over, or screwed him - frewed him. I tried to make a joke. It didn't...

Jamie: Yeah. What about also, when Seamus got so impatient that he prodded it with his wand and set fire to it, and Harry put it out with his hat. I'm sure in a future book, early on, it says that Harry had to put it out with his wand with water. So, perhaps just to show that Harry doesn't have any skill now whatsoever. He really is still in the Muggle world.

Eric: Oh yeah, it's cool. Seamus set fire to it. I think that was really funny in the movie. Good comic relief.

Jamie: Yeah. [laughs]

Jamie: Levio-... Levi-O... [makes explosive sound]

Eric: There's emphasis, strange emphasis, on Ron's arms here. It says, "Ron, at the next table, wasn't having much more luck. 'Wingardium Leviosa!' he shouted, waving his long arms like a windmill."

[Jamie laughs]

Andrew: It's to make him look big and stalky, like he always does.

Laura: Yeah, I'd have to agree.

The Troll

Eric: Quirrell comes in, screaming, ranting. They sneak off and they lock the troll in the bathroom with Hermione, [laughing] even though she wants to be alone. They're like, "Hey! Let's go lock the troll in the bathroom with Hermione!" So they do. Then they realize that they're stupid, and then they open it up and try and save her.

Laura: That really meant something to me, because currently, in the next county over from me, there is a woman trying to get the Potter books banned from all of the school libraries in her county, and she runs...

Ben: Boo!

Laura: Yeah! [laughs] And she runs around saying that Harry lies, cheats, steals, and he's not held accountable, and he has no conscience, and he does all these horrible things, yet he does all these horrible things...

[Eric laughs]

Laura: ...yet he accidentally locks a troll in the bathroom with someone who just annoys the hell out of him.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: And he immediately goes tearing back, risking his life to save this person, so, you know what?

Jamie: Who he doesn't even like yet.

Eric: Yeah, exactly!

Laura: Exactly! So...

Eric: I'd actually be surprised if the school libraries were updated enough to have the Harry Potter books.

Laura: Woman from the next county over, you need to get over it! Thank you.

Jamie: You know when Hermione says, "Is it dead?" And then Harry says, "I don't think so. I think it's just been knocked out." Doesn't later in the book, when they go down to the Philosopher's Stone, doesn't Jo say this one was definitely dead, do you think it's the same troll? That Quirrell sort of roused from his unconscious state and nursed back to health?

Eric: I don't think so.

Jamie: And then brought down into the - You think he'd be a bit stupid after just being knocked out, but I don't know.

Eric: I think it's a different troll.

Jamie: Probably not though.

Laura: It seems like it said - yeah, because it seems like Harry said something like, "It's a good thing that one's knocked out, because was a lot bigger," or something like that. "Good thing we didn't have to fight that one."

Eric: Oh, right!

Jamie: Oh, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah!

Eric: That's jumping ahead, but yeah.

Jamie: I think you could be right, yeah.

Eric: That's cool. That sounds very interesting. I think it's important to mention that Hermione does the unthinkable, and she says that she thought she was cool and...

Andrew: She lies!

Eric: Yes! She says, "I thought I was little Miss Goody Two Shoes who could handle the troll, so I went looking for it, and Harry and Ron...

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: ...knew that I was nothing really special after all, and they went and stopped it for me." So, McGonagall, knowing how McGonagall knows, that she can take five points from Hermione, give five points each to Harry and Ron, and voila, by the end of the night...

The House Points System

Jamie: It doesn't mean anything, five points, does it?

Eric: It's nothing. It's interesting to note, too, how, later in the books, the teachers seem to take a heck of a lot more points away.

Ben: Yeah, that's weird!

Eric: For even...you know?

Jamie: And give, yeah.

Ben: Because I remember Snape was like, [imitating Professor Snape] "You just lost a point for Gryffindor!"

Eric: Yeah! It's like fifty...

Andrew: Yeah, but it was a single point!

Eric: Fifty points for saying something about Hermione's front teeth and defending yourself against that, but five points for almost dying by a troll.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: Well, I see what it is - I see what it is. It's that it's all relative, because maybe some teachers started giving out more points for things that were insignificant, and so it sort of turned into a competition.

Eric: You know what it is.

Jamie: Maybe, yeah.

Eric: It's – it's inflation. It's JKR's way of commenting on the economy now.

Andrew: [laughing] Yeah.

Ben: It's inflation of house points.

[Ben and Jamie laugh]

Eric: Throughout time, everything inflates. So, you know, fifty points by Book 4 is the same as five points back then.

Jamie: You can get a really good exchange rate for house points.

Andrew: Oh yeah.

Jamie: Fifty to the dollar.

Andrew: Let's talk about that for a second. Is it because – is it because maybe Jo didn't take the point system as seriously when she was originally writing this?

Eric: Eh, I just...

Jamie: That could be it, yeah.

Eric: ...think that she didn't know where she was going to go with it. I mean, I don't know.

Andrew: Because one point. Or, or was it that they went easy on the freshmen?

Eric: Snape wouldn't go easy.

Andrew: Like an unwritten rule.

Laura: Yeah, that was always the impression that I got.

Andrew: [laughs] I called them freshmen...

Ben: Yeah.

Jamie: Oh, I know. You're terrible.

Laura: Awww, that's kind of what they are, but...

Andrew: They are, yeah.

Laura: ...I always got the impression that it was sort of a regulation for teachers to go a little bit easy on first years, especially at the beginning of their first term.

Andrew: One point just seems like... [laughs]

Ben: Well, when you – when then later on McGonagall takes away, McGonagall takes away fifty points, and that's like the big shocker. And it wouldn’t have been that big of a shock...

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: ...and everyone wouldn't have been as mad at them if there was a regular occurrence that they got taken away, even by the older students, if you catch my drift.  

Laura: Yeah, and I don’t think that the one point that Snape took away from Harry was really about losing house points. I think it was about Snape making a point.  

Ben: Or taking - taking a point, you mean.  

Laura: Like, I don’t like you.  

Ben: Taking a point. [laughs]  

Laura: No, no, no - ha, ha, ha, Ben. I think it was strictly about Snape making it known that he dislikes Harry. I think he wanted Harry to know that right from the start, so he was going to find any excuse he could to take a point.  

Eric: Yeah.   Jamie [at same time as Eric]: Yeah, it could be.

Eric: And - and it didn’t really matter about house points.  

Ben: But, no. Okay, he would take away more points than just one. I think it’s just the inconsistency.  

Laura: No, but that’s the thing, I don’t think it was about taking house points.  

Eric: I agree with Laura, and I have to say that when he did take away more points than just one, when he took away ten, or twenty points, it was specifically so that the rest of the Gryffindors would know that Harry had cost them something, and that it was Harry who had done this, you know? I think at one point in the books it said that, you know, the Gryffindors woke up the next morning to find that like, fifty to one hundred points were gone, and you know, they would wonder why, and they would think it was a mistake, and that way they would be able to know that it was all because of Harry. So I think Snape, whereas in the first scene he only took one just to jab at Harry, he takes away significant amounts to get Harry’s own house upset with him.  

Ben: Right, but about that, one final thing about that is...  

Andrew: Aren’t there...  

Ben: ...how do they know who got the points taken away? Is there like a log up there or a scoring marker?  

Jamie: No, no, no, it just spreads around.  

Eric: It just spreads, it’s a rumor.  

Jamie: It just spreads around the school, it’s just word of mouth.  

Friendship

Eric: Now here, the last line of the chapter is what I wanted to mention, it’s the last thing I have as a note, and it says, "But from that moment on, Hermione Granger became their friend. There are some things you can’t share without ending up liking each other, and knocking out a twelve-foot mountain troll is one of them."  

Andrew: That’s another classic JKR moment.  

Eric: [laughs] I thought that was - that was a brilliant, classic JKR moment. It totally is, because...  

Jamie: It is, definitely.  

Laura: It’s like doing MuggleCast.  

Eric: Yes.  

[Andrew laughs]  

Eric: It’s...  

Andrew: MuggleCast is hell, what are you talking about?  

[Eric laughs]  

Andrew: I just wanted to point out that Jo’s editors actually were considering cutting the entire troll scene, but she fought them to try to - well, she fought to keep it in the book.  

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: Oh no.  

Eric: But it’s such a plot - were they really?  

Jamie: Maybe...  

Eric: It’s such a plot...  

Jamie: ...it’s just to establish their friendship, maybe?

Andrew: So, she actually wrote on her website, "Hermione, bless her, is so very annoying in the first part of Philosopher’s Stone that I really felt I needed something literally huge to bring her together with Harry and Ron." Just a little tidbit there.

Eric: I mean that's the whole – I can't believe they were thinking of cutting that. That's the whole point of like how they became – you know, this big boom! thing to get them to become friends, and from that moment on they were best of friends. She helps them cheat on their homework, you know what I'm saying?

Laura: Mhm.

Eric: I mean, she just does that for them, and it's like this strange bonding experience. I think it was very important to include there because people do become friends for weird reasons sometimes.

Andrew: And it developed Harry and Ron, too, in that they were brave enough to fight the troll.

Eric: And they took responsibility for their own actions...

Andrew: Right.

Eric: ...by going to find her, because it was their fault that she ran off. So, I think that was big character development and it really worked out for everybody.

Andrew: Let's go talk to these editors. Do me a favor.

Laura: Yeah, I'm glad she fought for that. That would have been stupid.

Ben: Don't you guys think that it would make sense that she fought to keep it in because it was foreshadowing?

Eric: I wouldn't be too upset at the editors. They probably had their own reasons, I mean, some editors obviously didn't realize that Hermione was going to become this big, central character as well. I mean, even if they did, I wouldn't be too upset at the editors, they just – they made a suggestion.

Voicemail - Wands

Andrew: Now moving on to the general voice mail questions, this first one comes from Allison.

[Audio]: Hey MuggleCasters, this is Allison from Fairfax, Virginia, and I have a question for you guys. In the book, when a wizard's wand breaks or gets damaged, they go to Ollivander's to get a new one. However, like Ollivander says to Harry in Book 1, "No two Ollivander wands are the same, just as no two unicorns, dragons, or phoenixes are quite the same." So, when a wizard goes to replace his wand, what does he get if the first one was the best one for them? Just wanted to know what you guys thought. Love the show, especially Jamie! Bye!

Eric: The second-best.

Andrew: The second-best.

[Jamie laughs]

Laura: Uhhh...

Ben: Well, no, I don't know about that. I think – how do you know they actually found the wand that was best for them when they went the first time.

Jamie: Yeah, that's right.

Ben: Because we know there's like millions of wands in there. Not literally millions, but there's a lot of wands in there. And it isn't like they go through each and every one of them and choose it.

Eric: I think they do. Because if you – if you read the book, Ben, that's what Ollivander did for Harry. And I understand that Harry might have been a special case.

Ben: He didn't go through every wand that's win the store.

Eric: Yeah he did, pretty much. They went on for hours...

Laura: No. They went through them until they found one that worked.

Eric: Until they found one that glowed or did the special thing.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: Yeah, until they found one that worked. And maybe – and maybe if you're... The book's all about destiny and stuff, so maybe if you're destined to end up with that other wand. Maybe the reason the wand broke to begin with was because it truly wasn't the wand for you.

Jamie: Isn't it like that's the best wand at that time?

Ben: Yeah.

Jamie: And you know? A new wand could come out that suits you. It's like, if each person has certain statistics, so say that one person's brave, bravery equals dragon heart string or something, and they're also courageous, which equals twelve inches, and they're also friendly, which equals oak.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: You know? That would be the perfect wand because it matches them in their powers, so – and like, there are degrees of perfection. So, say Harry's holly wand that he has now could be extremely good, but there could just be tiny, tiny changes that could make it an even better wand, or something like that. I don't know.

Andrew: Mr. Ollivander is very educated with his wands, so he would probably pick one of the best ones for the wizard right off the bat. Right?

Jamie: Yeah, I think that could be right.

Andrew: It's not like he – he doesn't have to go through all the wands, he knows, he can narrow it down to a group of them.

Ben: Right, yeah, he has a lot of experience with wands.

Jamie: Unless there's no correlation whatsoever between a wand and who it picks. It could just be that one wand likes a certain person, just from that. If there's no connection whatsoever, then he really does just have to try as many as possible until he... I mean, it's just luck then. It could just be luck.

Eric: Ollivander did try one hundred wands before Harry found the one that – you know? The spindly chair was...

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: ...ready to break from all the wands that they were using, but it came upon to me...

Jamie: Yeah. But is there always a wand for a person or not?

Eric: Well, I was wondering, because Ollivander, he spends all that time, and Harry tries all these wands, that doesn't work, and destroys half his shop doing it – if you follow the movie. And he finally picks out this wand and says, "I wonder."

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: And, you know, does this whole thing, and he knows where the holly wand comes from. He knows, you know, the phoenix feather, that it's Fawkes, Voldemort's – why didn't he try that sooner? I mean, maybe it was in the back of his mind, maybe.

Jamie: It just came to him. It just came to him, maybe.

Ben: No, maybe – maybe it was about one hundred wands down the aisle, and we went and tried the other ones.

Jamie: But, also couldn't it be that – I mean like, Squibs don't have any magical properties. Couldn't it be that Squibs can't get wands? That could be one reason. I mean, I know they say that you can do magic without a wand, but you can't do – you can't be, like a proper, powerful wizard without one. It's like, even though Jo says that magic comes from within you, you need a wand to centralize it and focus it. Could it be that, if say Filch goes into – goes into Ollivander's, that there would be no wand for him? And that could be part of the reason why he's a Squib. I don't know.

Eric: Well, there's that, but there's also this other thing Jamie, about this whole wand thing. Some people use their father's wand, or their brother's wand. Like, you know Ron, even when Ron started off, he wasn't using...

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: ...he was using Charlie's wand, wasn't he?

Jamie: Yeah. So... Yeah, he was.

Eric: And then it broke, he kind of got one – so it's really interesting how people just...

Jamie: It could be genetic then, you mean?

Eric: Genetic? I...

Jamie: Genetic.

Eric: I mean, it could be anything, because people don't even need to go into Ollivander's and get wands, you know, they can use their brother's wand, or...

Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

Ben: Or maybe it was that Ron's family was too poor to buy him his own wand, so...

Eric: No, that's what it is.

Ben: ...he said - yeah, I know, but...

Eric: But then Charlie – Charlie needs a wand of his own.

Ben: Right, but, the wand, it didn't function properly with Ron though. That's the thing.

Jamie: But do you think like, there are some wands which you just can't use? It just doesn't suit you at all?

Laura: Yes, I do.

Jamie: Like, if Harry...

Laura: I do.

Jamie: ...used Voldemort's wand. Sorry, if Hermione used Voldemort's wand. It's a powerful wand that's been used for evil, could she really, you know, wield that power? Or if Neville used it or something, I just don't know if they could do it.

Laura: Well here's my two cents. I think that saying that there is one wand for one wizard is like saying there is one person you can be friends with, or there is one person that you can fall in love with in this whole world, and I just – I don't think that's true. I think that here are different wands that can suit you, and it can also depend on how you've grown as a person. It might change later.

Jamie: Well, I only love Ben. Don't know about...

Ben: Using the love analogy - you know you can, like, you can have people that maybe you fall in love with and stuff, but maybe there's only one true love. Maybe there's only one wand.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: You, Ben, for me. I love you, Ben!

Ben: That truly fits you.

Jamie: Actually, Ben, this is a perfect moment for this. I've been meaning to ask you this for a - for a while now. I'm afraid I can't get down on one knee, but Ben?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Ben: Yeah?

Jamie: [laughs] Ben Carla Schoen...

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: Carlo. His middle name is Carlo.

Jamie: Will you marry me?

Laura: Can I be the flower girl?

Ben: Of course, Jamie.

Jamie: Oh, yes!

Ben: Of course.

Jamie: Yes, definitely. Definitely.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Can I be the best man?

Jamie: Eric, you aren't doing the speech.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: Eric, you are not doing the speech.

Ben: Yeah, you're definitely not.

Eric: Awww, come on, okay. [Ben laughs]

Eric: No, but one final thing on this voicemail question that's gone on and on and on forever. I wonder what JKR's position...

Ben: You like it that way.

Eric: ...on this whole wand thing would be, considering she...

Jamie: Yeah, I think we're interested to find out.

Eric: ...she did make effort to characterize James' and Lily's wands as good for Charms or, you know, very swishy...

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: ...very pliable, good for this, good for that. And so Ollivander did kind of classify what wand was what for his parents. And so it's just interesting to see, well, what happens, and is one wand - you know, does it, as a person changes, does another wand suit them better? Or what's the deal with that?

Jamie: Yeah, that's true, yeah.

Ben: Somewhere out there, Jo, I know you're listening.

Eric: Yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: You listened to the...

Ben: Announce it on your own site.

Eric: I'm sure she turned it off when she heard the marriage announcement, though. She's like, "Oh, crap."

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: "They're proposing to each other, it's time to stop."

Andrew: Next voicemail. Ben from New York.

Voicemail - The Pensieve

[Audio]: Hi, this is Ben from Buffalo, New York, and I was - I had a question about the Pensieve. When Harry and Dumbledore try to convince the Muggle community - the magic community about Voldemort's return, why can’t they put Harry's memory in a Pensieve and show the Minster of Magic? Thanks, I love the show! Bye!

Jamie: You can - I'm sure that you can fake memories. If I think that I can fly away to a castle, and I'm picturing it now, and I'm picturing myself freezing. Freezing my ass off, flying to a castle, thinking I'd love to be at the nice warm castle now. I'm picturing all the imagery and everything. I could put that into a Pensieve, I think. Or could you? Or could you?

Ben: Well, look to Half-Blood Prince, where Slughorn tries to modify a memory that Dumbledore has because he doesn't want Dumbledore to find out ...

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: ...that he told Tom Riddle about the Horcruxes. So, I don't think you can truly forge a memory, though.

Jamie: But the thing is, that's an extremely badly done, obviously you know, attempt at changing his memory. Is it that he's just a bad memory-changer, or is it just exceptionally difficult?

Ben: Or maybe if he truly believed that, though. I think maybe if you - you know sometimes if you...

Jamie: He obviously felt very strongly about it and he got extremely emotional.

Ben: Like if you reinforce a perception in somebody, maybe they'll actually truly believe they...

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: ...could fly away to England...

Jamie: And freeze their ass off, yeah.

Ben: ...like you think you could do, or...

Eric: Well, that's like saying if you use Veritaserum and somebody truly believes that they're telling the truth, will they lie, or will they tell the truth? Like...

Jamie: No, no, it isn't, because it forces you to tell the truth. It can't be subjective - the truth can't be subjective. It's just facts. It forces you to tell fact, that's it.

Eric: But facts can be wrong. If you're brought up to believe...

Laura: Fact about what you know. Fact of what you've been told.

Jamie: No, they can't be wrong. It forces you to tell the truth. It's magical, it can't be wrong. It forces you to tell the truth.

Ben: And - right. The difference with a Pensieve is that your memory - your memory is biased towards your point of view.

Jamie: That is subjective. Your memory's subjective. Yes, exactly. Whereas Veritaserum forces you to tell the truth. Obviously, there are - I mean, there are obviously antidotes to it and ways to fight it, but if it catches you and ensnares you, then it forces you to tell what is the truth.

Eric: Not just the truth as you know it - THE truth.

Jamie: There's no subjective version of the truth. Yeah, exactly. You can't...

Eric: I don't know. That's interesting.

Jamie: You can't say, "my truth is wrong." It's a paradox. You can't say that.

Laura: I was always under the impression that Veritaserum worked in the fashion that you tell the truth about what you know. Like, someone could have...

Eric: Yeah, that's what I'm saying!

Laura: ...lied to you.

Jamie: About what you know, yeah.

Laura: Someone could have lied to you and you could be telling them what they - yeah!

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Well, that's absolutely it. Yeah.

Eric: But that's all I'm saying, Jamie, is that if you're brought up to believe...

Jamie: Well, obviously. Yeah.

Eric: ...you know, that you can't tell the truth. It's a false truth.

Jamie: You could tell the truth that somebody had lied to you - no, sorry, that somebody had told you this and that this is what happened. But you couldn't say this is the truth, because you don't know it's the truth. You just say, "John Smith came up to me and told me that this is what happened." Obviously, you can't add, like, "and I thought this was wrong," or "I thought this was bad." This is what happened.

Eric: I don't even know where this is going. What I wanted to say about this whole voicemail question...

Jamie: It's a narrative. It isn't analysis.

Eric: Well, I think we agree with each other...

Jamie: It's complete narrative.

Eric: I don't even know. Okay. All I wanted to say was that it's the truth as you know it with Veritaserum. But I think - I don't think Vol - you know, the Ministry of Magic or Fudge would have taken the time to have Harry walk over to a Pensieve and put his memory. He doesn't, you know - he doesn't, like - I don't think he cares.

Jamie: Right, exactly. Yeah.

Eric: I don't think he cares at all about whether it's the truth or not. I think he just wants to incriminate Harry and he wants a response out of him, and he's not going to believe Harry, or, you know...

Jamie: It isn't only that, though, but - sorry, go on, finish your point.

Eric: He isn't going to believe Harry no matter what he says, or believe Dumbledore. He's always trying to discredit him, and I don't think - you know, even if Harry could prove, could put his memory in the Pensieve, they would have just said, "Oh, that's a false memory," or some crap like that.

Jamie: But they've got to be scared of it being the truth as well. If people trust Pensieve memories, then it would prove that the Ministry of Magic were incorrect. But also, they have to draw the line somewhere. I mean, obviously, they use Veritaserum on the criminals and everyone like that to get confessions and stuff. But there comes a point where you - I mean, I don't know, I just don't think they could viably use Veritaserum on an 11-year-old schoolboy, or however old he was at the time, without causing an uproar. I mean, clearly there's corruption going on, because I doubt that, and I doubt that the public would approve of the use of Veritaserum on everyone, right?

Eric: I don't think the public would know, but...

Jamie: No, exactly. Corruption in the upper echelons of government. Oooo! Dan Brown!

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Eric: I just read that!

Jamie: Seriously, there is.

Eric: You know, I just read The Da Vinci Code, and Angels and Demons. Great books.

Jamie: Ah, good man. Good man.

Laura: Oh, I love Angels and Demons.

Jamie: The next book, Eric, is Holy Blood, Holy Grail. Read that.

Eric: I'm on to Narnia.

Andrew: Isn't that the book that the guy is, like, tried to sue Dan Brown?

Eric: There's a hundred people...

Andrew: Isn't that in the news recently?

Jamie: Yeah. Baigent and Leigh did it.

Andrew: Yeah, for copying or something.

Jamie: Yeah, but he won it. There were like - he claimed that there are kind of, there are small inconsistencies - like there's a character in The Da Vinci Code called Leigh Teabing, and Teabing is an anagram of Baigent, who's the author of Holy Blood, Holy Grail. And Leigh is a - sorry, and - yeah. And Leigh is the last name of one of the other authors. And then there are other things as well, like they reference Holy Blood, Holy Grail - Leigh Teabing references it directly in the book. And there are all other tiny things as well, but I mean, I just think it's based on it. It's not - he doesn't actually plagiarize. It's facts...

Andrew: Yeah, it's...

Eric: Personally, all this stuff about Da Vinci Code...

Jamie: ...you know? I don't know.

Eric: I think Angels and Demons is a better book anyway. Da Vinci...

Laura: I thought so too!

Eric: Yeah. Da Vinci Code...

Jamie: I Angels and Demons is awesome - yeah.

Eric: ...rips off of Angels and Demon's plot completely. Like, everything happens the same, there's the same...

Jamie: They're all the same, though.

Eric: Yeah, exactly. The assassin is led to believe there's an organization - it's, like, so many similarities it's just...

Jamie: But...

Eric: ...I prefer Angels and Demons.

Jamie: But Eric - but Eric, I thought the ending to Angels and Demons was a bit disappointing. I thought The Da Vinci Code was better.

Andrew: But moving on with the discussion, Jamie, what were you going to say?

Jamie: Perhaps it's just an inadmissible in their courts of law. Like over here - I don't know, just from the back of my memory being drunk isn't an excuse for criminal intent. So you can't say...

Eric: You can't plead ignorance.

Jamie: Well, no. It's more like - it's more like if you get absolutely drunk out of your head and kill somebody, that being drunk is no excuse. It's absolutely no excuse whatsoever. So, you know, it's just like - I think it could be just like that. Perhaps the Pensieve isn't concrete enough.

Andrew: Next voicemail comes from Lauren and Alex from Florida.

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