Slughorn and Lily

John: Well, back on Slughorn for a second, though. We kind of brought it up real quick, casually, but you talk so much about how he's so upset about Lily Evans and on and on about it. What was his deal with Lily Evans? Especially knowing the kind of people that he has in his Slug Club? Granted she was Head Girl and all, but I mean, what - I mean, it's like a big kind of clue to the character of Lily Evans that we're supposed to find out so much about in the next book. Like...

Jeff: It sounds like a lot of people had a crush on Lily Evans. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah, yeah. [laughs]

John: I know.

Rachel: Yeah, she was popular, I guess.

[Jeff laughs[

Ben: She must've been hot. [laughs]

[John laughs]

[Laura gives an exasperated sigh]

[Rachel laughs]

Ben: I'm just. But honestly, though...

John: Do you think that he was attracted to the student?

[Jeff laughs]

Ben: I - I - no, I doubt it's that.

Laura: Yeah.

John: Physically?

Ben: I'm pretty sure it's just - there obviously has to be something that she offered and she was Head Girl, and maybe she was just an exceptional student. As Laura intelligently pointed out, is that Harry noticed about Slughorn that he was the first Slytherin that he's known that hasn't really shown any prejudice towards those who are Muggle-born. And so it wouldn't matter to him that she's a Muggle-born.

John: Right.

Laura: Well, I think that he would react that way to any student that was in his Slug Club because he obviously chooses the most talented and I guess the most rich or the best looking - whichever way you want to look at it - in his eyes, kids who join his Slug Club. And I think that if he felt like he was the direct cause of one of them getting killed, he'd feel guilty about it no matter what.

Ben: Right. And I don't think it's any way - the people he selects for the Slug Club - I don't think it's any way contingent on...

Jeff: Bloodline?

Ben: ...your wizard ancestry. Yeah, your bloodline. I think it's more of how accomplished you are. And like Dumbledore said, it's our choices who make us who we are - basically, that's to paraphrase it. And maybe that's the same way Slughorn thinks. That if you choose to be this way, it doesn't matter whether you're Muggle-born, half-blood, or a pureblood wizard. What matters is your ability...

Jeff: Yeah, or promise.

Ben: ...in his eyes.

Rachel: You know what I've always thought was strange? Is that, since back when he was favoring Lily because she was so exceptional and she wasn't in Slytherin, don't you think that the other students probably would have been jealous of Lily, knowing that the teacher was - especially that he was Head of House of Slytherin? You'd think his favorite would have been Slytherin.

Jeff: Yeah.

Laura: Mhm.

Rachel: You get what I mean? I always thought that was kind of strange - I don't know - that his student wasn't from his own house.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: Well, I don't know if he shows the same house bias that Snape does.

Rachel: Yeah. Well, that's pretty much what I'm basing it on, but yeah. [laughs]

Laura: Well, I have a feeling that Lily probably got some of the same taunting that Harry has.

Rachel: Yeah, that's what I think, too. Because of that.

Laura: Just because he favored her.

Rachel: Because of that.

Laura: Yeah, I'm sure that happened.

Rachel: Pretty much got picked on or made fun of because of that. Or she just wasn't liked by some of the students, especially the Slytherins, I think.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Well, that wraps up this week's Character Discussion, unless you guys have anything else to add.

Jeff: Nope.

John: No.

Jeff: Well done all.

Ben: Yeah. I hope everyone enjoyed this week's Character Discussion.

Main Discussion - Prophecies

Ben: However, the main discussion is not over yet because we're going on to our second portion, which has to deal with prophecies.

John: Oh my.

Ben: Throughout the series we've seen prophecies pretty much - they shape, basically, Harry's destiny and what has made him, quote-on-quote, "The Chosen One." But we have to beg the question, what exactly is a prophecy? Well, thanks to Jamie Lawrence from MuggleNet.com - most of you know Jamie. He made MuggleNet's section Level Nine. You can view that at MuggleNet.com/LevelNine, and has a lot of information about prophecies and what they are. A prophecy is defined by Dictionary.com as an inspired utterance as a prophet, viewed as a revelation of divine will, or a prediction. What it seems like in the Harry Potter series is that it's becomes more that just a mere prediction. Would you guys agree with that? That rather than it just being Trelawney spouting off these things, that Harry was born as the seventh month dies and that the power that the Dark Lord knows not, do you think that it's more than just a prediction? That it's actually going to happen, or do you think since she made this prophecy, that they choose to make it happen? Which is sort of what Dumbledore hinted at.

Laura: I think I'd have to...

Jeff: Yep.

Laura: ...agree with what Dumbledore said. It's the choices - choices are what make us who we are, and I think that Dumbledore was very correct in saying that if Harry or Voldemort had decided they didn't want to have anything to do with the prophecy, then it wouldn't have come true.

Jeff: That's a very good point.

Ben: That's definitely true.

Jeff: The beginning of the prophecy was a choice. It was either Harry or Neville. You know? And Voldemort chose - made a choice.

Ben: Right, so the choices sort of shape the prophecy. People sort of - not the prophecy, but the outcome of the prophecy. People have always wondered - and it's been in the series a few times, too - why couldn't Voldemort and why couldn't Harry just say, "This is stupid."

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: "Why are we fighting?"

Jeff: That wouldn't make a very interesting story.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: "Why don't we just sit the wands down and be done with it?" Well, they can't do that. Why do you think - of course, that wouldn't make a very interesting story - but why do you think that can't happen within the series? Do you think that Harry needs to get vengeance for his parents' death? And Voldemort's motive is because he's trying to take over the world?

Laura: No, I think the reason that it can't happen is because Voldemort is trying to take over and he doesn't think he can do that unless Harry's dead.

Rachel: Right.

Ben: That's true. I think it's more that Voldemort is after Harry than Harry being after Voldemort.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Which is really evident throughout the series pretty well, too.

John: Well, it's...

Ben: Well - what John?

John: Well, you've got Voldemort, who as much as he has his ambition to take over things is - obviously, he's got the ego and the pride to want to be the most powerful being on Earth. And if he knows there's some kind of prophecy out there that says someone can beat him, a priority is going to be to knock that person or anybody else out, who is prophesied that...

Ben: Gets in the way.

John: ...can possibly be more powerful than him or beat him. But with the prophecies that had me always thinking, are the rules of the prophecy as whether or not it means that only Harry can kill Voldemort and only Voldemort can kill Harry. If that's supposed to be meant that people can try to kill them, but they won't succeed because they're more stronger than them, or is it an actual impossibility, where if someone were to try to just take an axe to one of those guys...

Ben: They couldn't.

John: ...would it bounce right off because they weren't prophesied to be the one to kill the people? That's what I don't know.

Interpretation of The Prophecy

Ben: Well, that all comes down to the interpretation of the prophecy, which is what we need to get to next. Okay, I'll read the prophecy. This is from Order of the Phoenix. There is also one in Prisoner of Azkaban, but it doesn't really matter because the outcome already actually happened. So, okay, here we go.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches. Born to those who have thrice defied him. Born as the seventh month dies and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not. And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives. The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies."

Okay, so we need to break down this prophecy a bit. Okay, the parents of the person who can defeat Voldemort will be born to parents who have escaped Voldemort three times.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Okay, they're being born at the end of July, Voldemort will mark them as their equal in some way, and they will have the power that Voldemort will not know about, and either they will kill Voldemort or Voldemort will kill them in the end, because they cannot both exist. There is no coexistence going on here.

Jeff: Right.

Ben: But the real question about the prophecy is, couldn't it be talking about three people?

[John coughs]

Ben: And let me read this sentence here: "And either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives."

Jeff: Right.

Laura: Ummm.

Ben: Don't you see how it can be talking about three people? Or am I crazy?

Laura: I didn't interpret it that way. I was thinking it was saying neither can live - neither referring to the two of them - while the other survives, referring to the opposite, which would be: Harry's opposite being Voldemort or Voldemort's opposite being Harry. I hadn't interpreted that as being a third person.

Ben: Well, I'm just saying that Jo's kind of tricky. So, you know?

Laura: Well...

Ben: But the prophecy is probably pretty straight up.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: It'll set up the final showdown, I think, that we're all looking forward to.

Jeff: Well, we're living - well, Harry Potter and Voldemort are living in paradox right now because the prophecy says, "Neither can survive while the other lives," or whatever the other thing is paraphrased. But, yeah, they're in a paradox right now so until it's equaled out, they're going to be in this constant flux, constant crisis, and constant battle.

Ben: Mhm.

John: I think the biggest disservice you can do, in regarding the carrying out of this prophecy, is paraphrasing it because of how long Jo says...

Jeff: Sorry. [laughs]

John: No, no, everybody does it, Jeff. Even I did it. I still do it. But Jo says how long she spent on that prophecy. Hours and hours on the words of it alone, and one of the things I've been thinking about recently is the whole line about, :neither can live while the other survives." What exactly is she meaning by "live?" Does it mean live - Harry cannot live a full life while Voldemort is around because he's always going to be a burden on his mind, and he's always going to be connected to him through the scar connection, and all that crap?

Ben: That's a really good point, John, because...

Laura: Yeah, and Voldemort can't live the way he wants to with Harry around.

Ben: Yeah, I never really looked at it that way.

Laura: Yeah, I hadn't, either. Thank you. [laughs]

Ben: When you define the word "live," it really brings it into a whole new light because we don't know if "live" actually means the real sense of live or you're dead.

Jeff: Physical life.

Ben: Yeah, physical life, or if it's talking about like John says, living a full life.

John: Yeah, your lifestyle, your well-being - all those things.

Ben: Well, we'll find out...

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: ...in a little over a year from now.

[Everyone laughs]

Prophecy UnFulfilled

Ben: Also, do you guys think it's actually possible for a prophecy not to be fulfilled?

John: Well, yeah.

Rachel: Yeah, I think so.

John: Because the people involved have to choose to go through with this prophecy, don't they?

Jeff: Yeah, but isn't that the - isn't that what makes a prophecy different from a prediction: is that, if you believe that prophecies are what they say they are, which is things to come, even the choices that are involved still create, they'll still fulfill the prophecy. It's just a matter of how.

Ben: Mhm.

Jeff: That he he choices - but it's still the prophecy.

Ben: Right. It's like when you're trying - when you try to alter history. I'm going to use the example of the new episode of The Twilight Zone that I recently saw...

[Rachel laughs]

Ben: ...was when this lady traveled back in time to try to kill baby Hitler. And the mother comes outside while this nanny is trying to kill the baby, and the nanny throws the baby into the water, and the mother starts freaking out because she thinks that she is going to get blamed. So, she steals a baby from a homeless woman who's sitting outside, and that baby becomes Hitler.

John: Hmmm.

Ben: So, you see what I'm saying? That no matter how much you try to stop it, it seems that it's always going to end up that way.

John: Yeah.

Laura: Mhm.

Jeff: Yeah.

Ben: I don't know if the Hitler story was necessary, but...

[Everyone laughs]

John: I haven't heard about Hitler in a while.

Jeff: Nice interlude, yeah.

[Laura laughs]

John: Yeah

Ben: Hope you get the point.

Jeff: Yeah, that's a good point.

Other Prophecies in Phoenix

Ben: Okay. And it's also important to bring up that in Order of the Phoenix, there are other prophecies that - there are other prophecies that actually happen. There's one other prophecies - there's one other prophecy, and it's very interesting. When I read the book - when I was rereading Order of the Phoenix for the second time, I started freaking out. Okay, here's what it says. In Order of the Phoenix, there are two prophecies broken, and you hear snippets of their content, and you hear, "'At the solstice will come anew,' said the figure of an old, bearded man; 'And none will come after,' said the figure of an old woman." Okay. After I read Order of the Phoenix, I looked up the definition of solstice, and I saw that it was June 21st.

Laura: Mhm. [laughs]

[Jeff laughs]

Ben: And that happened to be the same day that Order of the Phoenix was released.

Jeff: Yep.

Ben: So automatically, I started freaking out. The solstice will come anew, a new Harry Potter book...

[Jeff and Laura laugh]

Ben: ...and none will come after!

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Well, what I...

John: That's funny.

Laura: I just found it kind of interesting...

Ben: And so I just about died.

Laura: I found it interesting because I think that that night so many prophecies were broken when they Reducto'd all the shelves to escape from the Death Eaters, and I think that Jo kind of made a point of having us hear those two little clips.

Ben: Mhm.

Laura: And the way that...

Ben: They're in italics in the book, actually, so...

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: ...that points to the fact that...

Jeff: Oh yeah, she always has a point if she brings something up. [laughs]

Laura: Exactly. So...

John: Yeah.

Laura: I think there are multiple ways to interpret that, but when I was kind of reading it, the first thought that came to my mind was that maybe the war with Voldemort would end at the solstice, and that after that, no other evil wizard, or no other wizard that could live up to either Harry or Voldemort's status as being able to take over or being able to kind of dominate the entire wizarding world, would come.

Rachel: Yeah.

Ben: Right, but don't you think it's more of a war of - okay, there's the physical war going on, but isn't it also the war of ideologies? People continue...

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: I got, like, two e-mails of people getting mad about me comparing it to the war on terrorism. But it's sort of the same concept when you say, "Okay. Can you really win the war on terrorism?" Can you really win the war? I mean, if you defeat Voldemort, is it really going to stop - like, defeat the ideal?

Laura: No.

Ben: Not really.

Jeff: Is it going to stop racism or whatever...

Ben: Yeah.

Jeff: ...you want to parallel it to, with the bloodlines and...

Laura: No.

Jeff: No. That's always going to be there.

Rachel: Mhm.

Laura: It will always be there, but my question is, do we think that anyone like Voldemort is ever going to come along again?

Ben: Well, that's hard to tell, of course.

Jeff: Yeah.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Of course, in the future there could be somebody who is equally as evil, but...

Jeff: Ever is a long time.

Ben: I don't know.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Yeah.

[Rachel laughs]

Jeff: And even just today's news about al-Zarqawi being blown up, they're saying, "You know, and the war on terror, the ideal won't die. Someone else will come along that has the same ideals."

Laura: Mhm. Well, yeah.

Jeff: Whether or not he'll be as successful at promulgating these ideas, it's up to history to decide.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: And so, does anyone else have any interpretations of the prophecy that we heard after one was broken off the shelf? Because there's a reason Jo put it in there, and I couldn't think past there being any more Harry Potter books. I just started freaking out!

[Laura and Rachel laugh]

Jeff: Read it again, Ben. Read it again.

Ben: Okay. "'At the solstice will come anew,' said the figure of an old bearded man; 'And none will come after,' said the figure of a young woman." But see, another thing I have to bring up is if it's talking about the winter solstice or the summer solstice?

[Jeff and Laura laugh]

Ben: That's another thing.

John: Eh.

Ben: Seriously! Because there's December 21st and then June 21st.

Jeff: Yeah.

Ben: So maybe - I don't know. In Book - maybe in Book Six, something happens in or... Hmmm...

Jeff: I don't know!

Laura: I don't know.

Rachel: It's a question...

Laura: [laughs] I guess we'll just have to find out.

Ben: It's so confusing!

[Rachel laughs]

Ben: It's so confusing. I don't know, it's a...

Jeff: Well, wait, hold on. Another definition of solstice I just looked up is, "the highest point or culmination." That's the entire definition.

Ben: So, we don't know if it's actually talking about a date, like at the solstice, the actual solstice.

Jeff: Right, just the kind of culmination of the battle or the war.

Ben: Mhm. But what "will come anew" - will come anew what, though, Jeff?

Laura: A new world!

Jeff: A new...

Laura: A new life.

Jeff: Yeah.

Ben: And none will come after.

Laura: Maybe no other wars. Maybe no other huge battles like that.

Ben: Okay. If Harry Potter ends in...

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: ...world peace for all, I'm not...

Laura: I'm not saying world peace! I'm not saying world peace. I'm saying none will come after in such a large scale.

Ben: Mhm.

Rachel: Yeah.

Laura: Or something along those lines.

Jeff: Maybe in regards to Harry in particular - none - he'll be all set, he's home free.

Laura: Yeah.

Rachel: Yeah.

Laura: Maybe it's about him.

Jeff: Just him, yeah.

Ben: Yeah, I guess so.

[Jeff, Laura, and Rachel laugh]

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