MuggleCast | The #1 Most-Listened to Harry Potter Podcast 3

MuggleCast 47 Transcript

Show Intro

Andrew [Show Intro with music in background]: Because you're still waiting for that Hogwarts letter (thank you, Ally, 14, of Virginia) - this is MuggleCast Episode 47 for July 09th, 2006.

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Ben: Hello, everyone and welcome to MuggleCast Episode 47. I'm Ben Schoen.

Jamie: I'm Jamie Lawrence.

Laura: Jamie?

Ben: Silence.

Jamie: Sorry, I said my name. Ben start it.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Okay. I'm Laura Thompson.

Greg: And I'm Greg Porter.

Ben: Before we go any further, let's go to Micah Tannenbaum for a look at this past week's Harry Potter news stories.


Micah: A Canadian court ordered The Wyrd Sisters band to pay back WB's legal fees incurred while fighting the original court case. The band says they are appealing the court's decision and will continue to push their $40 million dollar lawsuit against Warner Bros.

A spokesperson from WB says that they are extremely hopeful that they will continue to prevail in this case.

Fans have speculated that HP 7 will hit shelves on July 07, 2007, and now an article by CNN Money describes how a 2007 release for the final Harry Potter book is just what the struggling American publisher needs. The company is optimistic that its profits won't completely flat-line following the publication of Harry Potter 7.

And given Scholastic's relationship with her, they should be in good position to work with her in the future.

Warwick Davis has let us know about a charity auction he's holding in Peterborough, UK on Sunday, July 16th. The auction line up includes many exciting pieces of Harry Potter memorabilia, with the star item being a very rare, original "Quidditch World Cup Programme" as seen in Harry Potter and the Goblet of Fire. What makes this one extra special is that it has been signed bye Daniel Radcliffe. Warwick will be personally auctioning off the items and complete information on the auction is available over on

In the latest edition of Entertainment Weekly, the magazine offers their odds on various characters perishing in the final Harry Potter book.

Ron comes in at a modest 20-1, Ginny's looking grim at 6-1, Hagrid isn't getting any love at 3-2, Hermione seems safe at 50-1, Snape is in serious trouble at 2-1, Harry is in danger at 9-2, and Voldemort, well, has little chance with even odds. Wasn't that a really feel-good segment? has posted a new interview with M. Night Shyamalan, director of great thrillers such as The Sixth Sense, Signs, and more recently The Village. Now partnered with Warner Bros, Shyamalan was asked if he's been approached to direct one of the last two Potter films. To hear his response, be sure to check out the full interview over on

Speaking of the movies, more Order of the Phoenix set photos surfaced earlier this week. You can check out brand-new shots of Privet Drive, Hagrid's Hut, and the Hogwarts Express over on our Main Page.

Finally, JK Rowling, president of the Multiple Sclerosis Society Scotland (say that five times fast), was presented Thursday with a Doctorate of Laws by Aberdeen University for her generous and philanthropic work aiding Multiple Sclerosis research. So, congratulations are in order to Jo for this very prestigious degree!

That's all the news for this July 09th, 2006 edition of MuggleCast. Back to the show.

Ben: Thanks, Micah. Before we move on to this week's listener rebuttals let's take a look at few announcements.


Ben: By your MuggleCast t-shirt. Jamie, why should they buy a MuggleCast t-shirt?

Jamie: Because, because we haven't ever told them before. So, I doubt many people would have bought those, you see.

Ben: Mhm.

Jamie: So, I thought we'd provide one new announcement so everyone can get their's in time for Lumos and New York, which leads smoothly into our next announcement, doesn't it Ben?

Ben: Yes, it does. We need you, if you're going to be attending either LIVE podcast, either in New York City or in Las Vegas for Lumos, you need to visit and RSVP. Jamie, what does RSVP stand for?

Jamie: Right. My French accent is going to be ridiculously rusty. It's "Repondez S'il Vous Plait!", which is "please reply" or "reply please".

Ben: Mhm. So, please reply. Let's move on to our next announcement. Everyone, everyone, everyone please vote for us in the 2006 Podcast Awards. We are going for "Best Entertainment Podcast" and "People's Choice". So, you can do that by going to and remember - announce us once every 24 hours so we have a chance to win a podcast award.

Laura: And go to California. [laughs]

Ben: Yeah, we want to go to California. Yes, that is what... [laughs]

Greg: Wait, wait, didn't you forget "The Best Podcast Called MuggleCast Award"?

Jamie: Oh, yeah.

Ben: Oh, yes.

Jamie: Please vote for us in that category.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: Itís...

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

Jamie: We really hope to win.

Greg: Vote against the others.

Jamie: Yeah, it's going to be a... Yeah, but Greg, it's going be - our main contender is that one called MuggleCast.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

Jamie: It's sort of - it's between us and them.

Ben: We want to - there are some people over at this podcast called "Nobody Likes Onions" that I heard they really, really want to see us win the Podcast Awards.

[Laura laughs]

Ben: So, so please, please go ahead and vote for us at the Podcast Awards.

Another thing that you should vote for us for is vote for us on Podcast Alley because right now our friends over at PotterCast are beating us. So, we need you to vote, okay? So, please got vote for us at Podcast Alley. Right, Jamie?

Jamie: Yes, please do. Please do.

Greg: Remember if you vote for PotterCast it means you hate us.

[Laura laughs]

Greg: You don't hate us, do you?

Jamie: And also, every time you vote for PotterCast, God kills a kitten.

[Laura laughs]

Greg: Yes, twice.

Ben: So, no voting for PotterCast. Vote for MuggleCast people. So, that wraps up this week's announcements. So, in short, by your MuggleCast t-shirt, RSVP for Lumos, vote for us in the Podcast Awards and Podcast Alley. Here are this week's voice rebuttals sent in by listeners who have feedback to give us on the past week's show.

Voice Rebuttals

[Audio]: Hi, my name is Cheryl and I am calling from Santa Clara, California. And I'm calling as a listener rebuttal for MuggleCast #26 in reference to the Occlumency. And I side with Ben regarding the Pensieve and the memories are still stored in your brain. It's just maybe the details of these memories are what you store in the Pensieve. The reason why I mention this is if you listen or re-read the chapter in Book 5, it does not clearly say that Snape is removing those memories from his brain for the lesson with Harry. He's just doing it. Maybe he's saving it to look it over the discussion they just had. But, nor does it state that he has to do it so that Harry doesn't see. Otherwise, why would Harry suddenly see all his past about him being as a child, being beaten and all that. I'm sure Snape wouldn't want him to see that, so either way, I just wanted to say I side with Ben on this and I do not think that just because you put it into the Pensieve you have no memory of it. Otherwise, how do you know what's even in the Pensieve? You don't even remember it is there. So, okay. Bye!

[Audio]: Hi, this is Christina. I'm in Pennsylvania. I actually have a listener rebuttal. You were saying how Dumbledore's memories are in the Pensieve and you were talking about whether or not it is a copy or the actual memory. I think it's more of a copy because if you remember his memory of the prophecy is in both the Hall of Prophecies and in his own Pensieve. So, what about that? I think it's more of a copy and a compression inside your brain. Okay, keep up the show. It's great! I love it!

[Audio]: Hello, this is James. I live in Baton Rouge, Louisiana, and I was just noting on Episode 46 how you were talking that Jo do not want to leave it open for a sequel after Harry Potter 7. That could mean that Harry is going to die, however it could also mean the epilogue could take place far in the future with Harry looking back on his adventures and how he took down Voldemort and how he lived a happy life since then. That's all! Great show! And I will talk to you.

Listener Rebuttal - The Final Battle

Ben: Okay, now it's time for this week's listener rebuttals - one's that are sent in via e-mail by several visitors. I first listener rebuttal comes from Taya, 19 years old from Louisville, Kentucky.

Hey Andrew,

After listening to you and the guys talk about the possibility of Snape saving Harry's life in the final battle, I came up with a theory of how I think it's all going to go down: There are lots of us out here who do not want to see Harry kill Voldemort with Avada Kedavra. One reason is because it would be rather boring. But another is that we just don't want Harry to have to kill anyone...ever. So, here's the solution.

During the final battle, Snape blocks a killing curse sent at Harry by Voldemort. He dies to save Harry. This then offers Harry the same protection that Lily provided him back at Godric's Hollow. Thus, when Voldemort sends another Avada Kedavra at Harry, it rebounds once again...this time killing Voldemort, as he no longer has any Horcruxes.

I just think that there would be something very poetic about the story ending the way it began. I would love to know what you guys think. Thanks! I love the show!

Jamie: She... I really. Sorry.

Ben: Jamie, what do you think?

Greg: That's why fan fiction exists.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs] Jamie, what do you think?

Jamie: I was going to say I really like the idea about poetic justice and the story ending the way it begun, but I think that is why Harry should kill Voldemort with Avada Kedavra. It would be a bad ending, but a good ending because of that. So, he'd have spent ages doing all his Horcruxes and then he'd just kill him quickly and it would be like - you would think, "Is that it?" But then, I just think it would work really well. Like Voldemort tried to kill Harry with the Killing Curse and it didn't work, and but Harry kills Voldemort in the end. So, it kind of shows an inferiority on Voldemort's part, whereas Harry can do it. I just think it will be nice.

Ben: Well Jamie, I just don't think - I think there has to be something more to it than Avada Kedavra. I mean I agree with him, you really don't want to see him kill anybody, but he is going to have to find a way to kill Voldemort anyway. And so...

Jamie: You have to remember that Avada Kedavra isn't just Harry killing Voldemort. The killing process started ages ago when the prophecy was first told and doing the Horcruxes.

Ben: Right, right. Mhm.

Jamie: All that kind of thing.

Ben: I just can't see when Voldemort dies or if he dies in the books, I just can't see it ending that way.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: I don't know. Just, it doesn't seem right to me for it just to be Voldemort misses a curse that is shot at him and he dies because... You know? I just think there has to be something more to it. And the theory that this person presents about Snape dying to save Harry, I don't think that that can happen because the reason Harry survived when his mother died to save him was because of love. And it was out of his mother's love.

Jamie: Harry, yeah. And Snape doesn't kill him.

Ben: And Snape doesn't love Harry.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: Snape's doing it because he owes him a debt because of his father. So, I don't think that is going to happen, but I do think there is something more to it than Avada Kedavra. Laura, did you have some thoughts on it?

Laura: Yeah, I think it's been made pretty clear that Harry is the one that has to kill Voldemort and it would be kind of like Voldemort killing himself with his own curse if he shot it at Harry and it rebounded on him. I think that whatever curse or anything that happens, goes on, has to come from Harry. I don't think rebounds count.

Jamie: I think that's right. But, Ben, you talking about that Snape doesn't love Harry so he couldn't do it, I think that's right. And, I mean, this is to digress slightly, but I think it brings up sort of important points in the books, that there are some things that even magic can't change. Like, you can't fake the love, so you can't provide that type of protection to Harry if you don't really love him, which is why it's such a powerful charm.

Ben: Definitely.

Jamie: I mean, I like this theory, in that it provides a nice end for Voldemort, but I think even Avada Kedavra could be a nice end because that would sum up the entire killing process. It would just be the final step and I think it will kind of wipe out all the emotions that have been developed throughout the entire series.

Ben: Thanks to Taya for sending that in to us.

Listener Rebuttal - Voldy's Upbringing

Ben: Now, moving on to our next Listener Rebuttal, which comes from Rose, age "Ahhh!" from Jacksonville, Florida.

[Laura laughs]

"I have a quick comment on the way Voldy turned out so bad. As much as I would love to think of Voldy as mentally subnormal, we are told very often by Dumbledore that Tom Riddle was one of the brightest students ever. Also, if we look at Harry, he has not exactly had a easy life of love and sunshine; gifts and candy. Harry has not turned out to be bad and he had it worse than Tom, if you ask me. Tom lived in the orphanage, anyway. Tom lived in a world of indifference and Harry lived in a world of neglect. Who is to say what life can turn out a dark wizard?"

Laura: Last week whenever I was talking about Voldemort having inherited some kind of mental problem from the inbreeding of the Gaunt family, I wasn't talking about him being less intelligent than anyone else. I was actually talking about that somewhat contributed to his deranged outlook on life. Because, if you look at it, serial killers tend to be very intelligent people, so just because someone has an issue in their head doesn't mean that they're stupid. As for you talking about Harry's life versus Voldemort's life, I agree with you completely and I'm not sure if this got thrown in last week, but I remember in Half-Blood Prince, Dumbledore said, "How can you really feel sorry for Voldemort?" because he did have this predisposition to be evil and he did have a bad upbringing, but he could have overcome it, and he chose not to.

Ben: That pretty much sums up my thought on it. Jamie?

Jamie: But, could - I mean, the two things that I first thought when I read this was, Dumbledore talking about choice: that, even though Voldemort's had the worst time ever, so has Harry. One chooses a different life to somebody who chooses another life.

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: So, I think choice has to come into it. I just, I mean, this is really going in circles to what we talked about last week, but I just don't think you can be born evil because it just completely destroys any chance of choice in the world and just suggests that fate and destiny take over everything, which doesn't really seem to be a theme in the Harry Potter books. Well also, I was going to talk about that they mentioned that Dumbledore said that Tom Riddle was one of the brightest students ever. And the brightest, most evil people are the most dangerous people. If you look at, I mean, if you look at Hitler, he was absolutely terrible, but he was exceptionally clever, you know?

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: Politically, financially, everything. He was one of the greatest public speakers ever, so I think that it's all about choice, really.

Ben: It's like Dumbledore said, "It is our choices far more than our abilities..."

Jamie: Exactly, yeah.

Ben: "...that shape who we are." So, regardless to how they were raised they both chose their own paths and that's how they ended up.

Listener Rebuttal - Mirror of Erised and Horcruxes

Ben: Our next Listener Rebuttal comes from Travis from North Carolina.

"MuggleCasters, most people I know think that the Mirror of Erised will be seen again, and I got to thinking. Is Harry going to use the Mirror to find the location of the Horcruxes? He did basically the same thing with the Stone. He changed his greatest desire from his family to finding the Stone. Can he do that with the Horcruxes, as well? Just wanted to see what you thought."

Jamie: Hmmm.

Laura: Hmmm.

Ben: No. I'm going to say no because the reason that he got the Stone was because...

Laura: Dumbledore made it that way.

Ben: Yeah, Dumbledore made it that way. So, if Dumbledore wouldn't have made it that you could get the Stone from the Mirror, then it wouldn't have happened. Now, unless Voldemort made the Mirror a Horcrux... I don't know.

Laura: I don't think so because, that would also require Dumbledore knowing - or whoever created the Mirror - knowing where the Horcruxes were, and I don't think Voldemort would want to use something that Harry already knew how to use, clearly, from the first book.

Jamie: But, isn't there a difference between using the Mirror to find the Horcruxes and using it to get the Horcruxes. So, he could look into it and see himself. If his deepest most desperate desire was to see where the Horcruxes were, he could see himself finding it. But, I think that it must take a lot to change your greatest desire from seeing your family, who he hasn't ever known, to finding the Horcruxes. And also, surely, however much he wants to see where the Horcruxes are located, his deepest desire is always going to be over and above that, say, to kill Voldemort.

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: So, even though he really wants to find the Horcruxes, he wants to kill Voldemort more. So, it could be like - it's a Catch-22 situation with the Mirror. I think it's possible, though. There's got to be a loophole somewhere that allows him to do it.

Ben: Well, okay, the thing is, Jamie, is that - the thing is that if Harry looks into the Mirror and his greatest desire is to have all the Horcruxes, it's not going to show him where the Horcruxes are. It's going to show himself holding all the Horcruxes.

Jamie: No, no, no, because if his greatest desire was to know where the Horcruxes were located, not for him to have them all, then it would do. If his greatest desire - I mean, it depends on the wording and what his greatest desire is. If he really, really, really wants to be with the Horcrux, then it could show him with it, so then he'd know where it was. I think it depends on how you interpret a greatest desire like that.

Ben: That's definitely true. But I just can't see the Mirror being able to guide him to it because then the Mirror would have to have some innate knowledge of where it actually is located.

Laura: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. You would kind of have to have a different point of view on what the Mirror can actually do. I mean, can it show you something that you don't know? I mean, something that you have absolutely no knowledge of?

Jamie: Like, if you...

Laura: I mean, like if...

Jamie: if your greatest desire was know what the meaning of life was, could it tell you the meaning of life? I mean...

Laura: Yeah, along those lines. Or, if someone went and buried something, like a Horcrux, and you had no clue where it was, could it show you where that is? Because it's not like it's programmed into the Mirror to know everything. It's not God.

Jamie: No, but I mean, I assume the Mirror hasn't seen Harry's parents before, but they obviously look like, I mean, I assume they look like what they look like.

Laura: Well no, I'm talking about - I'm talking about the Mirror reflecting things that you know.

Ben: Right.

Laura: And obviously, I think Harry must have some kind of knowledge of his family.

Ben: A recollection of what his people looked like. Well, that's not true, though, because, don't you remember Harry looking into the Mirror and saying he saw people who looked like him and who had eyes like his...

Jamie: Oh yeah, that's true. That's true.

Ben: ...and had hair like his.

Laura: Yeah...

Ben: So, is it, but I don't think - was that actually images of his family members know? It's all hard to explain because we don't know the magical process that goes into actually propagating images to be reflected on the Mirror.

Laura: But, Ben, I think it was you...

Jamie: It's a contradiction in terms, though. Sorry, go on.

Laura: I think it was you that said it a few episodes ago. That everything that happens when you're a baby you can remember it, it's just in a different part of your brain that's pretty hard to access. So, what if Harry had recollections of these family members that he saw as a baby?

Ben: That's true. That could be possible, yeah.

Jamie: But the thing is, it's a contradiction in terms if Dumbledore says that the Mirror shows nothing less than the deepest, most desperate desire of our hearts. But then we say that it can't show things it doesn't know. It can't do both. You know? If your greatest, deepest desire of your heart is to find out the meaning of life, it has to show it to you. But, that's where magic comes in. We can't explain this.

Laura: Mhm.

Ben: Right. Well, that was an interesting discussion. But do you guys - the final thing he addressed - do you think that we'll actually be able to see the Mirror again?

Jamie: We do, don't we?

Ben: And do you think that...

Jamie: Doesn't Jo say it's going to make another appearance?

Laura: No, that was the car.

Jamie: Oh really? You sure it wasn't the Mirror?

Laura: The Ford Anglia. I'm pretty sure.

Jamie: Oh, okay.

Ben: Because I recall - I don't know. Maybe, Jamie, you read the Galadriel Waters books...

Greg: Oooh.

Ben: ...because she says, she says, "I think we'll be seeing this Mirror again." Except she had it backwards, kind of clever, like the Mirror of Erised has on it...

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. I remember something like that.

Ben: "I show your...I show not...'whatever'...but your heart's desire..." Yeah.

Jamie: Why do we always ask questions on here that we don't find an answer? We give one side, then we do the other side, and then we say, "Yeah, well it could be either way, really, couldn't it?"

Ben: Yeah. [laughs] We need to start making bold predictions.

Laura: [laughs] Well, I'm kind of the opinion that you have to have some kind of knowledge of what your desire is. I mean, or at least some kind of opinion because, what if the Mirror reflects - if it reflects what you want, couldn't it reflect your opinion, as well?

Ben: That's true. But, Jamie...

Jamie: Yeah?

Ben: Jamie, how could the Mirror show you the meaning of life because if the Mirror could show you that, then you wouldn't have the purpose of discovering the meaning of life.

Jamie: But, no...

Ben: The Mirror reflects your heart's desire, and Dumbledore said that many of many men have wasted away before it.

Jamie: Wasted away before it, yeah. Entranced by what they see.

Ben: Yeah, so...

Jamie: But, if they are entranced by what they see, then it must be pretty damn powerful, the stuff that it can show. But I don't see how it can show nothing less or more than the deepest, most desperate desire in your heart if it's got limitations.

Ben: That's... Yeah, good point.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

Laura: I think the limitations are based on the person looking in the Mirror, though.

Jamie: What? You mean it's sort of...

Laura: I don't they're based on the Mirror, I think they're based on the person looking in it.

Jamie: But, clearly from what Dumbledore says about that people have wasted away before it, it will show you whatever you want as long as you're not - sorry, even if you're not worthy of it. It will always show you your deepest, most desperate desire in your heart, even if...

Laura: Yeah, but couldn't it show you the deepest most desperate desire in your heart as you would want to see it?

Jamie: Well, if...

Laura: Not as it would be, but as you would wish to see it?

Jamie: Well...

Ben: This is getting confusing, guys.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: It's interesting, though.

Jamie: But, if your deepest, most - I'm trying to think about this while speaking, so sorry if it sounds stupid.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: If the deepest, most desperate desire in your heart is, say you - is say, a subjective view of yourself, then I think it will show you like that, but, I mean, obviously... Yes, of course, because, it shows Ron. It shows Ron...

Ben: As Quidditch Captain.

Jamie: Yes, Quidditch Captain. I don't think that's going to happen.

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: So, it obviously shows stuff that can't have a chance of happening, as well because if it's what you desire most, it's going to show it to you because...

Ben: Right, Harry sees his parents again.

Laura: Yeah, so...

Jamie: And...

Ben: And he's not going to see them in real life ever again.

Jamie: But, as Dumbledore says, it shows neither truth nor something. So, it simply just shows what you really, really want.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

Laura: Yeah. So, it shows it from your point of view.

Jamie: As the Spice Girls point out, the Mirror says to you, "So, tell me what you want, what you really, really want."

Spice Girls [Musical Interlude]: "Yo, I'll tell you what I want, what I really, really want. So tell me what you want what you really, really want. I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna, I wanna really, really, really, wanna zig-a-zig ah..."

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Jamie, Jamie, Jamie when I look in the Mirror, I see you.

Jamie: Really? Well, I see you as well, Ben. So...

Ben: Awww. Awww. Okay, well, thanks to Travis for that. That sparked a very interesting discussion.

Jamie: And we still haven't come to a conclusion.

Ben: Yeah, we still haven't really come to a conclusion. E-mail us your thoughts.

Listener Rebuttal - Does Alchemy Spell Hagrid's Doom?

Ben: Our next Listener Rebuttal comes from Serenity - I like that name - age 16sixteen from Virginia.

Jamie: "Boil the land and burn the sea. You can't take the sky from me." Sorry.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

"Hey guys! While I was listening to your latest podcast, I realized that the possibility of Hagrid dying wasn't even discussed. A while back, I read a very good editorial discussing this, and there were some very keen points. One: Black, white, and red are the three alchemy colors. Sirius is black, Albus means white, and Rubeus means red. JKR has used many subtle hints throughout the series, and this might be one of them. Two: JKR said that in the interview with Emerson and Melissa, that she wanted to kill off all those who Harry could depend upon, so he would be alone in facing Voldemort. And I think that they would mostly likely be the adults in his life. Finally, Jo has a knack for writing the unexpected (who would have thought that Snape was trying to save Harry in Book 1?). So since the newspapers, you guys, and many online polls haven't even mentioned Hagrid, don't you think that he is a worthy candidate?"

Actually, around Book 5, Hagrid - all the bookies were taking bets.

Laura: Yeah...

Ben: ...and I think Hagrid was the...

Jamie: They were. I was going to say that, yeah.

Ben: He was the number one person to go.

Jamie: He was number one, I think.

Ben: He had the best odds of dying.

Laura: He was.

Ben: So, it has been discussed before. So, I don't know. I think the alchemy point about the red, white, and black...

Laura: Yeah.

Ben:, white, and red is very interesting.

Jamie: I think it's interesting. It is very interesting. I don't think we can depend on that as a main clue, though. I think we can look elsewhere to see it. Hagrid's clearly part of Harry's life now, and I'd like to think he's going to be there when Harry has to do everything with Voldemort, but it obviously takes a lot to hurt him, as we see from the battle in Half-Blood Prince. So, I don't see - I don't know. It could be that Voldemort kills him personally to, you know, I don't know...

Ben: I don't think that...

Jamie: ...just to like incense Harry.

Ben: Well, you see, she mentions how JK Rowling says she wants to kill off everyone who's close to Hagrid so he's left alone facing Voldemort? I don't think she would have to kill Hagrid to accomplish that because what aid would Hagrid provide if he was battling Voldemort directly? You understand what I'm saying? If it was the case where he was battling Voldemort and Dumbledore was still alive, then Dumbledore would be able to assist him, and Sirius would be able to save him, because they're both trained and qualified wizards. Hagrid was expelled in his third year, so what's he going to do? Run at him with his...

Jamie: Exactly, yeah. He could hide behind him, and then sort of rugby tackle his legs and take him down so that Harry can...

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Yeah.

Laura: But I don't think that helping Harry defeat Voldemort necessarily means actually facing Voldemort.

Ben: You mean emotionally?

Laura: He could... Well, not just that. He could help Harry in so many other ways. He could hide him, he could travel with him. He could do so many things. He has such a vast knowledge of magical creatures. So, I think that...

Jamie: Yeah, exactly. He could help him, definitely, but I think it depends on... I mean, they make the point that Jo wants to get rid of all those people who Harry could depend on, but does that mean that she actually has to kill them, or that Harry just thinks that they aren't there, at the time for him, that he'll be better at facing Voldemort.

Laura: Well, I don't think she literally means she's going to kill everyone that he depends on because then...

Ben: That would mean Ron...

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: ...Hermione, Ginny...

Jamie: Yeah.

Greg: Well, I don't really see a reason to kill off Hagrid. Besides what you guys are mentioning, I just don't see it.

Ben: I don't think there's a purpose in killing off Hagrid, personally.

Jamie: Of course they... Well, the one purpose, I mean, the main purpose for all these deaths is to show that it is a war and there are going to be casualties on both sides. You can't just have Voldemort and all his Death Eaters dying, and everyone going home holding up Butterbeers shouting, "Hooray, we won the war!"

[Laura laughs]

Ben: Yeah, all right, but okay! In every book I think... I don't know, I just enjoy... I just always... Like at the end of Goblet of Fire, after you know the climax of the book and the denouement - I think that's what it's called. Is that right?

Jamie: The what? Sorry?

Ben: The denouement?

Jamie: The what?

Laura: [laughs] Oh!

Ben: Have you heard that term, Laura?

Laura: Yeah. I think that's right.

Jamie: What the hell is...

Ben: Denouement. It's like after the climax, the sort of ease down.

Laura: Hang on, I'm going to look it up. [laughs]

Jamie: How do you spell that?

Ben: Dee-now-ment?

Laura: It looks like de-now-ment.

Jamie: Oh, denouement! [pronounced like de-now-ment] Yeah. How did you...

Ben: Denouement. [pronounced like de-new-MA]

Jamie: [laughs] How did you say it, Ben?

Ben: It's denouement! [pronounced like de-new-MA]

Jamie: It's denouement, [pronounced like de-NEW-ma] isn't it?

Laura: Hang on, I'm looking it up in my dictionary. [laughs]

Jamie: It is de-new-mont. [pronounced like de-NEW-ma] No, no, no. It's D-E-N-O-U-E-M-E-N-T. It is not definitely de-new-ma, or however you pronounced it.

Ben: It's denouement! [pronounced like de-new-MA]

Laura: How's it spelled?

Jamie: It sounds like - It's D-E-N-O-U-E...

Ben: It's D-E-N-O-U-N...

Jamie: No, O-U-E. O-U-E.

Ben: ...M-E-N-T. No, it's not.

Jamie: It's de-new. D-E-N-O-U-E-M-E-N-T. Denouement.

Laura: Yeah! It's denouement! [pronounced like de-NEW-ma]

Greg: Oh, wow.

Ben: Hold on.

Jamie: Ben, she's the one checking it.

[Laura laughs]

Ben: See, this is what happens - this is what happens when you go to Moundridge High School, okay?

Jamie: [laughs] Ben, trust me, it's right. I studied it a couple years ago.

Laura: Yeah, he's right, Ben.

Ben: Denouement.

Laura: Denouement. Denouement.

Jamie: Isn't it like a dead pan?

Ben: Denouement.

Jamie: Isn't it like dead pan purging?

Ben: It's the unraveling of the plot.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: But anyway, in every book during the denouement... [pronounced like de-new-MA]

[Laura and Jamie laugh]

Ben: ...Harry always goes and talks to Hagrid, and I just can't see Hagrid not being there, you know? It just always seems like Hagrid's the control throughout the entire series. He's always there. It stays the same with him. And I just can't see him dying. If he dies, I'll be sad.

Jamie: I'll be sad, too.

Laura: He'll cry.

Ben: I'm sure Jo's counting on that. She's making sure she won't kill anybody that will make me sad.

[Jamie and Ben laugh]

Laura: We'll have to send tissues to the P.O. Box so that Ben can cry.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah, and shoulders. And shoulders. If you can send some shoulders so that Ben can cry on them. [laughs]

Ben: Yeah, does anyone else have any thoughts about Hagrid dying?

Laura: I'm neutral.

Jamie: Please don't let it happen.

Laura: I think it can go either way.

Greg: Yeah, I'm neutral, as well.

Jamie: [laughs] Yeah, same.

Ben: Me, too.

Jamie: I'll remain neutral. So, again, one more point where we haven't even nearly reached a conclusion.

[Jamie and Laura laugh]

Ben: Sorry about that. There's so much evidence pointing both ways that it's hard for us to pull it off.

Listener Rebuttal - Nicknames For Micah

Ben: Okay, well this is sort of a... This thing is... This next listener rebuttal-type thing has sort of turned into its own segment each week. People keep sending in new nicknames for Micah and, so, here are a few of them. We have Micahangelo, like either the Ninja Turtle or the artist. That was from Ryan, 18 of Virginia. And then there's Mr. Baum-bastic or the Baum-ba-deer (Jordan, 15, Windermere)...

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: And then here's my personal favorite: Micahphone. [laughs]

Jamie: Hey!

Ben: This is from JP, 16, of New Zealand. So yeah, send in your new Micah nicknames. Everyone, keep sending them in.

Greg: I still like La-baum-baum.

[Laura laughs]

Ben: [sings] La la la la baum baum. Sorry.

Jamie: Micahangelo is good. I like that.

Ben: Yeah, that is a good one. [laughs]

Jamie: He paints enormous frescos of Harry Potter news on the Sistine Chapel ceiling.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs] Well...

Jamie: Actually, I don't even know if that was Michelangelo.

Greg: I better look it up.

PO Box Update

Ben: A little update on the PO Box. We have received one letter in the past week, and you know what, guys? Everybody? I blame myself for not acknowledging you enough on the show. So, as a result, sometime between the release of this episode and our Las Vegas podcast, I'm going to make a list of everyone who has ever sent in a letter to the PO Box, and I'm going to post that on the website. I have all the mail somewhere, so it's just a matter of digging it out. And...

Laura: So Ben, are you going to have two separate lists? One for the stuff that you've actually sent and...

Jamie: Which would be - which would have nothing on it.

Laura: ...and the stuff that's still sitting in your closet?

Jamie: Ben? Ben?

[Laura laughs]

Ben: Ummm, no. Yes?

Jamie: Can I blame you, as well, on air? Because Ben hasn't sent us anything that's come into the P.O. Box.

Ben: No, I have! I've sent Micah his stuff, I've sent Eric, I've sent Laura, I've sent Andrew, I've sent Kevin.

Laura: Yeah, he's sent me two Christmas cards and...

Jamie: Wait, so wait, you sent everyone's except mine?

Ben: Yes, because I don't feel like paying post to Britain.

Jamie: Ben, it's not going to cost much for one letter.

Laura: Buy your MuggleCast T-shirt so that Ben can pay for the postage. [laughs]

Jamie: [laughs] Yeah. Please, yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Well, the thing about the P.O. Box - I don't have the letters in front of me, but thanks to Joel from for sending me some Subway gift cards.

Jamie: Ben! That's your site! Ben! [laughs]

Ben: And I've gotten... I know! That doesn't matter! That's where he's from, and he sent me Subway gift cards, okay? In the MuggleCast box...

Jamie: That's like me saying thanks to Jamie Lawrence for sending me a Subway gift card. Thanks very much, Jamie, that's really nice of you.

Ben: Yeah. [laughs] Any of your Subway gift cards are very accepted. They're very much appreciated. The battle against childhood obesity for me continues to be waged. I'm now 15 lbs. lighter than when I started, so...

Jamie: Nicely done.

Ben: Applause! High five!

Laura: Yay!

[Everyone claps and cheers]

Greg: Yeah, those gummy bears that you were eating before the show.

Jamie: Yeah.

Greg: Those were definitely helping.

Ben: Hey, hey. Don't talk about those. I know, those were. Okay.

Laura: Yeah, so...

Ben: Now it's time... Well, go ahead, Laura.

Laura: No, I was just going to say, if you want to send your Christmas cards, send them now and they might get to us on time.

[Jamie laughs]

Ben: Yes. [laughs] So go ahead and start sending.

Jamie: Christmas cards for Christmas 2015. Send them now.

[Greg and Laura laugh]

Ben: Yeah, you guys are just a riot.

Greg: By that time we'll be at MuggleCast 436.

Jamie: [laughs] Yeah.

Ben: Wow, did you figure that out, Greg? You're good, Greg.

[Greg and Laura laugh]

Greg: I did that all in my head.

Main Discussion - Prisoner of Azkaban Foreshadowing

Ben: Now, it's time for this week's main discussion. An interview with David Heyman, Steve Kloves, Mark Radcliffe, and JK Rowling on the Prisoner of Azkaban DVD extra, November 23, 2004, JK Rowling had this to say:

[Audio]: "Alfonso had very good intuition about what would and wouldn't work. He's put things in the film that, without knowing it, foreshadow things that are going to happen in the final two books. So, I really got goose bumps when I saw a couple of those things, and I thought people are going to look back on the film and think those were put in deliberately as clues."

Ben: What do you guys think that Prisoner of Azkaban foreshadowed in Half-Blood Prince, and what do you think it's going to foreshadow in Book 7?

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#244 (November 20th, 2011): For the first time ever, MuggleCast has a DVD commentary! Watch Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows - Part 2 on DVD with us. We'll comment on each and every scene - it's as if we're in your living room watching alongside you!

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