Did Dumbledore Get The Cloak in Godric's Hollow?

Jamie: Okay, okay fair enough. [laughs] Question four. Question four: Did Dumbledore go to Godric's Hollow to get the cloak?

Laura: Well, it all depends on whether James gave it to Dumbledore before or after the Fidelius Charm was performed, because obviously Dumbledore didn't do it. So...

Jamie: But how far - sorry.

Laura: If Dumbledore didn't perform the charm and he wasn't the Secret-Keeper he couldn't find the Potters, so James would have had to given it to him prior to going into hiding.

Jamie: That is true, but how long before they died was the charm performed? Do we know?

Ben: No.

Laura: Well, only a couple of weeks.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: They said that within two weeks of it being performed Voldemort found them and killed them.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: But obviously we know it had to have been sometime in that year that Harry was born, because he was only a year old whenever Voldemort attacked them.

Jamie: Yeah. Yeah.

Laura: So. it couldn't have been that far in advance.

Jamie: Do you think he gave it to him with all of his other possessions? Or do you think he sort of sat them down and said, "I'm giving you this cloak because," you know, "because it's special and you need to do something specific with it.: I think it could be that one.

Ben: Well, I don't think he intended to leave it with Harry because...

Laura: Why not?

Ben: ...I don't think that would've been his intentions.

Jamie: Well, because Dumbledore just said, "It is time that it is returned to you," didn't he? He didn't specifically say, "Your father gave this to me to leave you."

Ben: Right, because... But, no, why would James predict that if they were going to be killed that his son would make it through?

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: Oh yeah.

Laura: Because no parent ever wants to imagine that their child's going to die. They are going to want to leave options...

Jamie: He brings up a fair point though, doesn't he?

Laura: ...just in case their kid lives.

Jamie: He brings up a fair point, that, I mean...

Laura: Yeah, but do you know any parent that's going to say, "Well, you're absolutely going to die, so there's no point in making plans for you..."

Jamie: Yes, yes.

Laura: "...because you're going to be dead." [laughs]

Ben: Well, they're not necessarily making plans. I mean....

Andrew: Why would James give it over in the first place? Why does he have to assume that he's going to be the one dying?

Jamie: No, no, no, but, the odds there... He thinks if Voldemort... He didn't realize that Lily's love was in place, so he thought that, "If Voldemort can kill me, who you know, is clearly a pretty advanced wizard, he isn't going to have any trouble with a small baby boy." So, perhaps he gave it to him for, you know... Maybe it is a Horcrux, Ben.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Well, why... Okay, if you think about it... What I’m trying to say is, perhaps James gave Dumbledore the cloak for a reason other than to give to Harry later on....

Laura: To give to Harry.

Ben: ...for his own personal use.

Jamie: No he did, Of course he did. Because he couldn’t have envisioned that Harry would - was going to live, you know, even though in his soul, in his heart he must have absolutely begged him to live he had to think about. You know?

Ben: I mean, of course, who wants their kid to die?

Jamie: Yeah and, but, or perhaps he gave it to Dumbledore to cover Harry. I don’t know.

Andrew: Cover Harry? With the cloak?

Jamie: Yeah, yeah and take him somewhere or something. Ben...

[Andrew, Ben and Laura laugh]

Jamie: I doubt...

Ben: That's enormously significant in Book Seven.

Jamie: Huh?

Ben: That's enormously significant in Book Seven.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: I'd laugh if it was Ben, because I would never let you live that down.

Properties of the Invisibility Cloak

Andrew: I just don’t see how the cloak could unless there’s something more to the cloak and no don’t say Horcrux.

Micah: Well, could he use the cloak to go through the veil.

Jamie: Ooo.

Laura: I don’t think so.

Andrew: What would the cloak do?

Ben: I don’t know just throwing out a crazy theory.

Jamie: Because the veil wouldn’t think that anyone was there.

Andrew: Well perhaps, perhaps... Okay, hold on, perhaps there are some properties to the invisibility cloak that we don’t know about. Perhaps... Like what I’m trying to say, perhaps...

Laura: Well, yeah.

Ben: ...it does more than make you invisible. Like there’s something else that it does for you.

Jamie: Like what?

Ben: That's the thing, I don't know.

Laura: Well, we know that they’re really rare, so there’s got to be something special about it other than invisibility.

Jamie: I’ll give you ten points if you can tell me which creature you can spin hair from to turn into invisibility cloaks.

Laura: Ummm…

Jamie: It begins with a "D."

Laura: Demiguise

Jamie: Very good, very good.

Laura: Yeah!

Jamie: You get ten points. It’s pointless really.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: But you do win ten points.

Ben: It’s like Whose Line is it Anyway.

Laura: Beat me at a trivia contest next time.

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs] Okay well now I want to look this animal up and see if there’s anything special. Like you would think that if there is going to be some amazing revelation about the invisibility cloak there would have been some foreshadowing in the books already. Like-

Ben: Well there could be they just haven’t recognized it.

Andrew: Harry noticed that when he wore the cloak a spell deflected off of him.

Ben: I know, I know but she’s not going to do that. She is going to make subtle things. They would be subtle insinuations.

Andrew: I know. I know it would be in passing.

Laura: Yeah, like remember... Do you remember the way – do you remember the way it was described, like it felt light as air yet when it, like flowed over his fingers it felt like water. He said it felt like liquid air, so clearly there’s something just really bizarre about this thing, because it’s not just fabric.

Jamie: It makes you invisible, it’s pretty bizarre already.

Laura: Yeah and she just, the way she described it kind of played it up to be something even more special.

Jamie: Yeah. Oh, I think it is more special, but...

Cloak Used For The Order?

Andrew: Well that was sort of... That was getting somewhere it did seem like. What if Harry or what if James had given it to Dumbledore, for Dumbledore to give it to an Order member, because maybe James would have thought that an order member had...

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: ...a more important use for it.

Jamie: That’s the very sort of crucial answer though, that’s pretty general.

Laura: But why wouldn’t James give it to that order member then.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: Because an order member might have needed a – might have had a better reason to use it than James did.

Laura: Yeah, but why wouldn’t. No, I’m saying is...

Jamie: Why wouldn't Dumbledore have given it to her?

Laura: ...if James wanted to give it to an order member why wouldn’t James have given it to them?

Andrew: Because maybe, depending on the situation, who knows what was going on then with the Order, when all that was happening. They could’ve been all spread out across all of England or whatever. Maybe James just couldn’t directly deliver it to him.

Laura: They wouldn’t need to they had magic.

Andrew: And Dumbledore was going to see him for coffee.

Laura: They have owls.

Ben: No, what I think we are missing here is that he...

Andrew: That’s not safe though.

Ben: I think the reason that why James gave it to Dumbledore is the thing that is significant.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: Not what the cloak is used for.

Jamie: Yeah, definitely. Yeah, but it could be like he gave to him because it was needed somewhere.

Ben: I’m not saying that we should expect, oh in Book Seven Ginny’s going to get alive using the invisibility cloak.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah okay. How rare are they? Because he could have just given it to him. Because, you know, it’s a rare thing. He’s go to, you know? It’s something valuable, which is clearly going to come in useful at some point.

Andrew: It seems strange, didn’t Moody have two of them?

Laura: Yeah, he did.

Jamie: Yeah. But one was a bad one, wasn't it?

Laura: But then he had all sorts of, he had all sorts of Dark Arts things that no one else had.

Andrew: Yeah, he just collects them.

Differences in Invisibility Cloaks

Ben: Could be a possibility that the invisibility cloak is – that particular one - is enchanted somehow because, even though they’re rare I don’t think they all share the same properties.

Jamie: It’s a two-way invisibility cloak. He can use it to talk to James from beyond the grave.

Laura: Is it possible – we know that wands have different powers depending on what kind of animal their magical core came from. So, say the demiguise that Harry’s cloak was woven from had some sort of weird power. Would that make it more unique?

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Than the others?

Jo Is Messing With Us

Micah: I think she just likes messing around with us. That’s what I think. She put this out there – if you think about it, what did she really tell us on the site? See now you’re going to get me angry again.

[Andrew, Ben, and Laura laugh]

Micah: She didn’t tell us anything of significance. Nothing on that site was of any significance.

Laura: Yes, because she wants us to speculate about it. She’s trying to bring attention to it.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: She's trying to bring attention to it.

Andrew: She's got to keep the fandom going, [laughs] she realizes that this book is taking a while.

Jamie: Yeah, because Harry Potter's dying, isn't it?

[Ben and Andrew laugh]

Andrew: It is!

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: And she has got to restart it.

Andrew: No. I'm saying...

Ben: Yeah, I bet she doesn't have enough money so she needs more people.

[All laugh]

Andrew: [laughing] No! What I'm saying is she likes to see the community active like this, so she throws this stuff out there every once in a while to get everyone going and get everyone excited.

Micah: Watch. It was just a birthday present. That's all it's going to turn out to be.

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: Maybe, maybe.

Ben: Oh yeah, the most significant birthday present in - yeah.

Laura: How would that be significant? [laughs]

Andrew: Well yeah, that's the thing. She says it's not another Mark Evans situation.

Jamie: Yeah, exactly.

Where Did James Get The Cloak?

Laura: Well, where do you think James got the cloak from in the first place? Do you think it was a family heirloom or...

Ben: Wasn't it? Or do we know? I've read too much fan fiction, I've confused the heck out of myself.

Laura: I don't know if it was ever said. Yeah.

[Laura and Jamie laugh]

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: I think a lot of people have assumed that it's a family heirloom, but I'm not sure that it was ever specified that it was.

Jamie: I don't think you can go out and buy one can you, though? I mean, can you just go out and buy them?

Laura: Well yeah, that is why it would make sense that it was something passed down through the family.

Jamie: Yeah, well, exactly. Are they rare in that you see them in shops, but their few and far between and very expensive?

Laura: I don't think we've ever seen one in a shop. You would think if you could get one you could get it in Knockturn Alley, but I don't think we've ever seen one there.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they aren't evil are they?

Ben: Well of course they have to be expensive, or otherwise everyone would have them.

Jamie: No, because they could be rare as in...

Laura: You can't even buy them, it's not something you can really buy.

Jamie: ...I don't know, some type of animal. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben: But guys, if they are going to be rare than they would be very expensive to acquire one.

Jamie: No, because they could command high prices, but you just can't buy them.

Laura: What if it's something that you have to get because of something you do? For instance, Moody has it because he's an Auror or he was an Auror. What if - I mean we don't know much about Lily's and James' occupations. I've always kind of wondered what Lily's was, because Jo said that James didn't really need to have any kind of high-paying job because he had plenty of gold. So I was always under the assumption that Lily did something a little more important, and maybe it was hers.

Well what do you guys think it was that - assuming that invisibility cloaks are given out because of an important job, do you think that maybe Lily did something important with the Ministry? Like maybe she was an Unspeakable in the Department of Mysteries?

Jamie: Who? Lily? Oh.

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: A Bode or a Croaker? I don't know.

Laura: Mhm.

[Jamie, Laura, and Ben laugh]

Andrew: But how would she have inherited the cloak? You were saying that she had a more respectable job than James did.

Laura: Well I'm saying...

Jamie: [laughs] What did James do?

Laura: The only people we've ever seen in... Well, I think the only other person we've seen in the books who has a cloak is Moody, and he's an Auror. So, isn't it pretty safe to assume that you only get those cloaks based on some kind of important occupation?

Jamie: Could be, yeah.

Andrew: Hmmm.

Jamie: No, I think it's based on need though more than how important your job is. Aurors are trained in stealth and stuff.

Laura: Well obviously if you're doing something... If you're an Auror or you're an Unspeakable you're obviously going to need forms of protection. An invisibility cloak could offer some form of protection.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. That is true. Yeah.

Andrew: But then it got in James' hands, how? Lily just handed it over to him? Wouldn't she want to keep that for herself as sort of like a...

Laura: Well no, because once Voldemort is after you, you're screwed. It doesn't matter.

Andrew: But you would still want to keep it.

Laura: Yeah, but what if there was some greater cause as to why Dumbledore needed it? That's the thing. I think that Lily would sacrifice that.

Micah: I'm just looking at the way that she worded the question, because she never words things the wrong way; and she says "at the time of James' death." She doesn't bring up Lily, she specifically refers to James. I don't know. It's almost like she's saying why did he have it at that exact moment, so you almost think that he was there when it happened.

Ben: Whoa, whoa. Micah Tannenbaum, I love you.

[Laura, Andrew, Jamie, and Micah laugh]

Ben: But seriously though. It's important that... Okay at the time of James' death, wouldn't she say the Potters' death? You know what I'm saying?

Andrew: Yeah. That's how you see it everywhere else referred to it.

Laura: I don't think Lily's alive if that's what you're trying to say. [laughs]

Micah: No, I'm not.

Was Dumbledore in Godric's Hollow?

Ben: Well, do you think it could be possible that Dumbledore was in Godric's Hollow that night?

Laura: That's... I've been kind of wondering about that.

Ben: No, but if you think... Would he stand idly by and watch them be killed though?

Laura: I don't know.

Micah: Like he's holding the invisibility cloak in one hand [Laura and Micah laugh] with a weird expression on his face. Oops.

Laura: Well, hey, that... There's still something about that odd twinkle to Dumbledore's eye at the end of Goblet of Fire when he found out that Voldemort had Harry's blood. What if he's evil?

[Everyone laugh]

Micah: Where's Rachel?

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: What if he was evil, he was.

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Micah: No, but also the other thing that kind of debunks the Lily idea is that she refers to it as James' invisibility cloak.

Laura: Yeah. I see those.

Ben: Yeah, that too. If it was Lily's invisibility cloak, why would James give it to Dumbledore? You know?

Andrew: Well, Lily could have told him to give it.

Laura: Lily told him.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Do you want to...

Ben: I know, but if it was something that was her personal possession.

Micah: So he was whipped? Is that what you're saying?

Laura: Yes.

Micah: He just did everything that Lily told him to do.

Laura: Yeah, just like I think Harry's whipped by Ginny, so...

Jamie: Oh yeah, he is.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: She sorts him out, she sorts him out.

Theory From CoS Forums

Andrew: Do you want to read a theory off of CoS Forums? Maybe get this going a little bit more? This goes a little deeper, further than what we've been saying. This was posted on CoS forums by Eli C, a first year. He quotes Sorcerer's Stone, "Your father left this in my possession before he died, it is time it was returned to you, use it well, a very merry Christmas to you." And Eli says, "The cloak was probably left unintentionally with Dumbledore by James. I say this because Dumbledore did not say, 'He gave this to me to use it for whatever purpose.' It said James mistakenly left it, thus the, 'he left it in my possession.' We can theorize that Dumbledore did not have it intentionally and there is a strong possibility that the cloak was being used by a member of the Order. My thought is that it was James. Keep reading for more on this. Dumbledore only had it in his possession for a short time when the Potters were killed. Otherwise, such an important object of protection would have been returned quickly, especially if they were in danger. Remember that although Dumbledore is at school with Harry, Dumbledore asked Harry to keep the cloak with him at all times.

Jamie: Ooh, yes. But, if that's the case, then...

Laura: But how do you forget an invisibility cloak though?

Andrew: Well, hold on, there's more. "I think James was secretly tailing Snape under the cloak the night of the Prophecy. He followed Snape, overheard the conversation between Snape and Lord Voldemort, in which Voldemort chooses Harry as the One. Snape, realizing what he's done, turns to Dumbledore, and at some point James reveals himself either while Snape is with Dumbledore or right after he leaves. Remember that Snape knows that Harry and James' cloaks are one in the same. So, it is probable that James revealed himself while Snape was with Dumbledore in conversation. During this conversation or possibly heated discussion James sets down the cloak on a chair, discusses things with Dumbledore and Snape rushes off to Godric's Hollow and his family to keep safe. Dumbledore finds Sirius to be the Secret-Keeper, but then they choose Wormtail, cast the Secret-Keeper charm and the next day or so, James and Lily are killed. Snape did not know who the Secret-Keeper for the Potters was and therefore did not know that they would be killed. Besides, Death Eaters do not know each other, per se. See Book Four, I believe. There's more, but... [laughs]

Jamie: Do you think that if he could do that, I mean, if I had to be invisible, I'd want a way that Dumbledore chooses, rather than a cloak, because it's a crude way of remaining invisible. You know, if there's a strong wind...

Andrew: Yeah.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Jamie: It flaps up from the bottom then you're going to see your feet, or, you know, it's just seems... It is very crude. Or if you trip over and it flies off.

Andrew: Or footsteps. [laughs] You can hear footsteps, too. It's not...

Jamie: Exactly.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: It's not the same as...

Jamie: Yeah, but, yeah. It just seems very crude. But it's an interesting theory, though.

Ben: Well, hold on. Do you think that that's a case that Dumbledore needed to use the invisibility cloak?

Laura: No.

Ben: Because, perhaps... Oh, never mind.

Laura: No, say it, Ben.

Ben: Well, I was just going to say maybe Dumbledore's invisibility that he can do by himself - never mind.

Andrew: Just say it.

[Ben laughs]

Andrew: Just say it. No theory is safe.

Ben: Yeah, I know. I'm just saying that [laughs] the invisibility cloak has to have something special about it for Dumbledore to use it over his own invisibility. There.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah.

Ben: Thank me, Captain Obvious.

Andrew: If you're wondering why there's a lack of more discussion, that's because we're recording this on the same day that the news broke. So, we were a little tight for time for planning more of a thought-out discussion.

Jamie: We're also quite tired.

Andrew: We are quite tired. It's 9:21 here on the East Coast.

Jamie: Oh, well, you know...

Laura: It's 9:13, you're so full of crap.

Andrew: It's 9:22, Laura! [in nerdy voice] My Mac is synced with the U.S. government time zones, it can't be wrong.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: 9:13.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Is everyone slow in Georgia?

[Laura and Micah laugh]

Laura: Yes, actually, it's funny that you should ask.

Andrew: But if you have your own theories, feel free to send them in and we'll probably discuss this more next week on - but shoot, we're recording early. Listen to the show on Sunday, get them in by Sunday night. We're recording Episode 57 much earlier next week. Get your theories in. I'm sure there will be some waiting in the MuggleCast e-mail box, and we'll talk about it more on next week's listener rebuttals.

Dumbledore-Norris Facts

Jamie: The book, Lord of the Rings, was revised from it's original. The first one had Frodo taking the One Ring to Dumbledore to destroy it.

[Andrew laughs]

Ben: Hey Jamie, as a matter of fact, someone actually sent in a letter...

Jamie: Yeah?

Ben: ...a letter that had some Dumbledore quotes on it.

Jamie: Oh, nice.

Andrew: Next.

Jamie: Dumbledore once used an Engorgement Charm on a small hill. That hill is now known as the Himalayan Mountains.

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: Dumbledore performed the Aguamenti Charm only once. The result left 70 percent of the Earth covered in water.

Andrew: Ooh. [laughs]

Jamie: Okay. Oh, I'm sorry. These are thanks to B.D., 27, from Alabama. [laughs] Okay, here's one: A basilisk is born of a chicken's egg hatched beneath a toad, but Dumbledore was born of a dragon's egg hatched beneath a Hippogriff.

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: That's a kind of, you know. That'll do for today.

Andrew: Okay.

Jamie: Andrew, Andrew, that'll do for today.

Voicemails - Homeschooling

Andrew: That's plenty. Now it's time for this week's voicemails. [laughs] Here's the first one, from Amanda:

[Audio]: Hi, this is Amanda from Wisconsin. I just wanted to say I love your guys' show and I have a question. When you guys were talking about, on your last episode, that if Hogwarts was to close, they could be home schooled, how would the students who are Muggleborns be taught? Because their parents, you know, don't do magic. So, just wanted to see what you guys thought. Thanks, I love your guys' show. Bye.

Andrew: Laura, you're our home schooling expert. Tell us. Because you always stand by the - and I'm not trying to insult it or anything, I'm just saying you always stand by the...

Laura: Well, I think it's also important to point out that I was forced to argue that point by the person who came up with this segment - thank you, Ben. And, while I...

Jamie: What segment is it?

Laura: The debate segment.

Ben: So, are you admitting that you have a substandard education, Laura?

Laura: No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that you can't really compare a Muggle education to a wizarding education because any parent can teach you math, however, any parent can't teach you wizarding. There would have to be some sort of supplement.

Ben: No, any parent can't teach you calculus, I'm sorry.

Laura: No, I'm saying any parent...

Ben: If my mom tried - my mom couldn't teach me basic addition. [laughs]

Laura: Ben, I'm saying, I'm saying that any person, any person can study mathematics because it's a universal thing. Not any person can...

Jamie: I can't.

Laura: Yes, you can, Jamie.

Jamie: I'm [censored] at it. [laughs]

Ben: No, you can't. You cannot study that.

Laura: No, you - yes, anyone can study it.

Ben: Once you get to advanced levels, you can't.

Andrew: Yes, you can.

Ben: No, you can't. You have to have some instruction.

Laura: No, you can study it, Ben.

Andrew: In books! In books!

Jamie: No, you can't. No, you can't.

Laura: It doesn't mean you have to be a genius at it.

Ben: Okay, that's like saying you can read a book on how to fly a plane and you'll know how to fly a plane.

Andrew: Well, that's different.

[Jamie laughs]

Laura: No, it's not. It's not. That is completely different.

Ben: It's the same thing.

Laura: No, it's not.

Ben: Okay, you can't teach yourself calculus.

Laura: Some people can.

Ben: Okay, Laura.

Andrew: Someone had to invent calculus, Ben.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah.

Ben: Okay...

Andrew: That's a silly statement.

Ben: [laughs] Shut up, Andrew. You're wrong.

Andrew: [laughs] No, I think what Laura is saying is magic is completely different because there's a wand involved and there's a certain way you have to flick the wand and there's a certain, you know, you've got to concentrate...

Ben: No, but there's the same, the same - you have to go through another process. You have to go through a process with math, too.

Laura: The thing is, though, that everyone can study math. Not everyone can study wizardry. So, there is a difference between Muggle studies...

Ben: Okay, everyone can - no, no. We're going to come to the same playing field. Everyone wizard can study Potions.

Jamie: Yeah, exactly.

Ben: That's what we're saying.

Laura: Yeah, but not - yes.

Ben: They're different subjects.

Laura: Yes, but we're not talking about home schooling kids who have wizarding parents, we're talking about home schooling kids who have Muggle parents.

Jamie: They can still do it, though.

Laura: What I'm saying is...

Jamie: If they've got the magical ability, they can do it. They can do it, they can teach themselves out of a book.

Laura: Sure, some people can read stuff, but not everyone is adept at teaching themselves. That's true, they're not, and so you would have to come up with some kind of system where you sent tutors. There are actually some home schooling systems where kids go to pick up their work two or three times a week, and they meet with teachers and tutors, and they do their lessons. They bring it home, they do their work at home, and then they take it back for grading.

Ben: Okay, if you were a Muggle parent...

Andrew: We don't need to do a whole debate out of this.

Ben: ...would you want to... No, I'm just curious...

Jamie: No, this is fine. This is fine.

Ben: ...send your kid into a wizarding household, where they're likely to be killed?

[Jamie laughs]

Laura: If you were a Muggle parent, would you want to send your child to a wizarding school where they'll likely to be killed?

Jamie: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Andrew: Snap, Ben.

[Laura laughs]

Ben: No, I'm saying it defeats the whole purpose.

Laura: It's the same thing.

Ben: No, I'm saying it defeats the whole purpose of not sending them to Hogwarts.

Laura: No, it's not...

Ben: If you're going to send them somewhere else to be home schooled.

Laura: You don't - no, you don't have to send them to live with that person, they can use the Floo Network to get to and from...

Jamie: But Laura...

Laura: ...everyday.

Jamie: Laura, coming back to the voicemail. Do your parents teach you, or do you do it all yourself?

Laura: No, I do it by myself.

Jamie: Okay, well that means that a student, a student who is Muggleborn - sorry, a wizard who is Muggle born - can do it, too.

Ben: No, they can't because...

Laura: Sure, some of them...

Ben: No, listen, listen.

Laura: They can, Ben.

Jamie: Of course they can, Ben.

Ben: How did you learn to count to a hundred? Did you just, one day, wake up and say, "One, two, three, four..."

Jamie: But that's primary. That's kindergarten, that's kindergarten.

Laura: No, that's very different, Ben.

Ben: No, it's not. No, it's not. You have to have - someone has to help you establish the base in order for you to be able to build upon it. I mean, if you don't have any base to build upon, then you're not going to be able to enhance your education.

Jamie: The point is, though, Ben, people learn those things at primary school, whereas stuff like magic, you know, it's like, we see in Hogwarts, it's... You need to... You can't be taught how to hold your wand and wave it so something happens. You have to learn it from, you know - you've got to learn it yourself. It's like juggling; it's just practice that does it.

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: You can't... Somebody can't say to you, "Chuck one into the air and then move it across a bit. Then chuck the other one into the air, then catch it, then do this." You have to learn it.

Ben: Yes, they do. That's exactly what they do.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Yes, but it's trial and error, Ben.

Ben: I - I know, but you have to have someone give you a push in the right direction. If you're a Muggleborn - like swish and flick. Look, Flitwick spent a lot of time teaching them how to flick their wands the right way. You're not going to be able to figure - imagine how long it's going to take you to figure that out on your own. I'm just saying...

Jamie: You will. It's written down. If it's written down you can.

Laura: Are you saying that because, that because kids are home schooled, they can't have teachers? Because that's not true. I have teachers. I can contact them via e-mail. So there's no reason that if a student was having trouble, they couldn't write to their teacher - they couldn't write to the person who wrote their course material.

Jamie: Yeah, well, exactly. Yeah, and...

Ben: I'm tired of being right, guys.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: No, okay. I think that you can - you can learn math to a point, and that point might be pre-calc or calculus.

Jamie: I cannot do Kevin's math, man.

Andrew: Right. Same thing...

Laura: It depends...

Andrew: Same thing...

Laura: It depends on your abilities.

Andrew: Hold on, hold on! Yeah. You can learn magic to a point, but that point is basic - very basic magic.

Laura: There comes - the thing is...

Andrew: Because there comes a point in learning, going through your Hogwarts career that - or just your learning magical career that you will absolutely need a teacher.

Laura: The thing - there's a thing that some students can teach themselves independently all the time. Some students can't, and that is why if there was any kind of homeschooling program, I honestly, despite the debate last week, I don't find it feasible that Hogwarts would close down. I don't find it feasible that students would home school. I'm saying that it's not an impossibility. I'm saying that people - people could do it...

Jamie: Exactly.

Laura: ...if there was some kind of conflict that made, that would allow for homeschooling to go on because it wouldn't be safe to be at Hogwarts. It would have to be an alternative that people would take.

Jamie: I just think that it's obvious that they can do it, though, because if you think Dumbledore and Voldemort couldn't have get...couldn't have got...couldn't have been taught what they've learned...

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: ...over and above the basic stuff. They had to learn it themselves by trial and error and it's only by trial and error that you can do it.

Laura: There was a time when there was no school...

Jamie: Exactly.

Laura: ...and people had to have educated themselves on magic.

Andrew: Okay, well, there you go. [laughs] This discussion could really go on forever.

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