MuggleCast | The #1 Most-Listened to Harry Potter Podcast

MuggleCast 61 Transcript (continued)

Becoming a House Ghost

Micah: How do they become House ghosts? Is there a selection process?

Jamie: Yeah, you apply.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: Fill in a form and send it off, and then...

Ben: No, see, I hate these...

Laura: No, I don't think so.

Ben: ...questions that you can't even answer.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: I mean, there's like [laughs] it's all just conjecture, there's nothing to back it up.

Jamie: The entire show's conjecture. Jo's going to answer it in Book Seven, so we should...

Andrew: How do you know?

Jamie: Because she said she will.

Ben: Did she?

Andrew: Oh.

Jamie: Yeah, she did. She said, "There will be more information on why people become ghosts, and why they choose that path." Because as Nearly Headless Nick says in Book Five...

Ben: But not why they become House ghosts.

Jamie: No, but ghosts in general.

Ben: That's different.

Jamie: Ghosts in general.

Ben: Oh.

Andrew: Maybe they become house ghosts because they do some sort of service to the school...

Jamie: Yes, that could be it.

Andrew: ...that the headmaster wanted to recognize.

Laura: Maybe because they chose to stay at the school. [laughs]

Andrew: Well, right, but if...

Laura: So, if they're going to stay at the school, then...

Andrew: No, but if I want to turn into a ghost... If I want to be a ghost and I want to stay at the school, that automatically makes me a House ghost? We're talking about the House ghosts here, just the one. [clears throat]

Laura: Okay, well if they have to do some kind of special service, I doubt The Bloody Baron is exactly considered a...

Ben: No.

Andrew: You don't, you don't know that.

Laura: ...genuinely nice guy. [laughs]

Ben: Tom Riddle. Tom Riddle did a special service to the school.

Jamie: Yeah, but it's not everyone who does a special service. It's just..> Do you think... See, I was planning on saying, "Do you think, when the House ghost dies, he gets replaced by another one?" But can they retire or not?

[Ben, Micah and Laura laugh]

Jamie: Can they say, "Well, screw this. I don't want to do this anymore," and then go, or are they tied down...

Laura: No, they...

Jamie: a contract?

Laura: I don't think they can.

Andrew: Well, what else, what else, Laura, do you think could possibly...

Laura: Could possibly what?

Andrew: You know, what lets them become a House ghost? There's only one per House. That was...

Laura: Well...

Andrew: ...the point.

Laura: I just...

Andrew: And then they - they're probably there forever.

Laura: Yeah, but...

Andrew: I would think.

Laura: ...I don't think they're specified as "the House ghost." I think that's just how they're known to the students. There's probably more than one ghost per House.

Jamie: I doubt... There are loads of ghosts...

Laura: It's just the ones we see.

Jamie: Yeah, but, but that's - actually, that's a point, Andrew, you know.

Dumbledore's Control Over Ghosts

Laura: It's not like - it's not like Dumbledore runs around saying, "They're your ghost prefects," or whatever, they're just ghosts that happen to live in the houses.

Andrew: I guess so.

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. It's like, there have got to be more than five, six ghosts in the entire school that just float.

Andrew: But even so, wanting to stay at Hogwarts, that has to be...

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: ...a decision that's up to the headmaster. I mean, I would think you would really had to have been a great student...

Micah: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: the school, in order, you know, for Dumbledore or whoever to say, "You can stay in my school."

Laura: Is it up to Dumbledore, though? Do you really think he has that much control over...

Andrew: Well...

Laura: ...the school?

Andrew: ...the current, current headmaster?

Laura: Peeves is in the school, and it doesn't seem like it's too easy to get rid of him.

Jamie: No, no.

Ben: Well, that's because Dumbledore wants him around.

Jamie: Exactly. There's a reason.

Laura: No, I think...

Ben: No, no, no. Dumbledore won't oust him. They've said that before.

Jamie: Of course, that's true, yeah.

Laura: I know, but I mean, I don't think that Dumbledore can say - tell a ghost to get out of his school.

Jamie: Of course he can! He's so powerful, it's ridiculous.

Ben: Yes, he could.

Laura: Well, he...

Andrew: He could.

Laura: He can say it, but he can't make it happen.

Jamie: Of course he can! He can... Laura, he can do anything. He can do absolutely anything.

Laura: I'm not saying I know it for sure. I'm saying, yeah, he can do absolutely everything except stop himself from getting killed.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Ben: Ohhh!

Jamie: But he wanted to die, so it's fine.

Nearly Headless Nick

Micah: Looking at some of the House ghosts, specifically, Nearly Headless Nick, Gryffindor, he died on Halloween, October 31, 1492, and this is something interesting I found out and I didn't know this, but his day that he died is actually the basis for the entire timeline in the Harry Potter series. Did you guys know that?

Ben: What do you mean?

Jamie: He means that 19 - 1492 is, is when he died, okay? And in - and he celebrates his 500th death, death day in Chamber of Secrets at Halloween, which means that Chamber of Secrets takes place in 1992. Which also means that Philosopher's Stone ...

Andrew: Oooh.

Jamie: ...took place in 1991, and Harry's parents were attacked by Voldemort in 1981, and that forms the basis for the entire timeline of the films. Sorry, of the books.

Ben: Hey, I'm not a big fan of...

Andrew: I see.

Ben: ...doing that.

Andrew: The timeline thing?

Ben: Yeah, if it makes any sense.

Andrew: Yeah. Some people put a lot of speculation on, like, the timelines. Like there's a lot of - there's that one theory about the missing day in between when Harry's parents were killed and when Dumbledore took Harry to the Dursley's.

Laura: Well, timeline, timeline or not, I - that day was missing. I mean, if you think about it, the Potters were killed Halloween night, and Harry didn't show up at the Dursley's until the next night.

Andrew: I mean, that could just be that he had him at Hogwarts for a day to figure out what the heck they were going to do with Harry.

Laura: But, but Dumbledore didn't take Harry, Hagrid did.

Andrew: I don't think they have to make a big deal out of it. All right, so Hagrid took him back to the school, and then Dumbledore, you know, tried to figure out what to do. I mean, that's a big decision; where you're going to leave that kid, and...

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: ...didn't Dumbledore say that he was trying to get in contact with relatives, and that's the only one he could find?

Laura: I don't think so. I think that they knew that those were his only living relatives, but...

Andrew: Yeah, well, I mean...

Laura: And it's not like he exactly warned them before he left Harry on their doorstep. [laughs]

Andrew: Right, yeah. I mean, so that's a big decision. I think people need to stop going crazy over that. [in a mock worried voice] "Oh, what's happening in the one day? It's all wrong." It just doesn't...

Laura: I don't think it's wrong.

Andrew: There's plenty of explanation.

Laura: I think that if there's an extra day in there for a reason, it's not anything she did wrong. [laughs]

Andrew: Well...

Laura: It's something else that...

Andrew: Well, that's what I mean. I mean, people are like, "Explain it." But there's no explanation.

Laura: Yeah. I don't think it's a screw up, essentially.

Andrew: I don't think so either.

Nick and Harry Discuss Sirius

Micah: Well, Halloween does seem to play a big role in the series in all the different books, for the most part. Do we want to talk a little bit about some of the other events that have occurred?

Jamie: Why don't we...why don't we just...

Andrew: Sure.

Laura: Sure.

Jamie: ...finish talking about Nearly Headless Nick.

Andrew: Nearly Headless... Yeah.

Jamie: ...and talking about when Harry went to speak to him at the end of Order of the Phoenix. What do we think of that, if we can remember? He went to ask him if Sirius could come back, and, well, one of the things that happened was he asked him if Sirius could come back and he said, "He will not choose that path," and Harry said, "Why? Of course he will. He wants to see me again. Of course he will," and then he said, "No, he won't," which makes me think that perhaps there's a huge price to pay when you choose to become a ghost. If it means you can come back, there's got to be something else you can't do. You know? Like, love or something like that, maybe, and that's why Sirius...

Ben: Eat. [laughs]

Jamie: ...won't come back. [laughs] Yeah, eat, that's the big thing.

[Andrew, Ben, and Micah laugh]

Jamie: So, yeah.

Andrew: Maybe he just, maybe he just wouldn't want to see Harry...

Jamie: Through the eyes of a ghost?

Andrew: Yeah, like, the relationship would never be the same, I don't think.

Ben: Well, maybe...

Andrew: It's not like...

Ben: Maybe it has something to do with like, once you become a ghost, you can never, like, you're always going to exist, you know what I mean?

Laura: Well...

Ben: Like, that makes sense for that to be a sacrifice.

Laura: Well, that's pretty much what Nick said. He said that it was just kind of a pale existence, that it was basically mimicking the existence they once had. They just sort of got to watch from the sidelines.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: If you get what I'm saying?

Jamie: Yeah. No, yeah, I think that's true.

Micah: Also, you limit - and let's not react in a bad way to this - you limit the physical interaction there can be, and I don't think that Sirius...

Laura: Well, yeah...

Ben: Can ghosts interact with other ghosts?

Jamie: Yeah, yeah. They...Peeves...

Laura: [laughs] They do all the time.

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: No, I mean like physically.

Jamie: Yep.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: In their own physical sense.

Andrew: Like shake hands?

Ben: Yeah, or can they touch each other? Not in a bad way.

[Jamie laughs]

Ben: But like, you know what I'm talking about how like Nearly Headless Nick - this may be a movie thing - but his head falls off and then he reaches up and he pulls it back.

Laura: Well, of course he can...

Andrew: Well, he's got to be able to...

Laura: can touch yourself.

Andrew: Well, I guess if you can touch yourself and you're a ghost...

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: ...then you can probably touch other ghosts.

The Bloody Baron

Micah: All right, the Bloody Baron. How do you guys think the Bloody Baron died?

Jamie: [laughs] He got hacked to pieces, considering all the blood on him.

Laura: Yeah. [laughs] That's what I was going to say.

Jamie: Or he slipped over a blood factory and banged his head on the ground and died and then that's why all the...

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: Well, whose or what's blood do you guys think is on him? It's described as being "silvery." Do you think it belongs to unicorns?

Jamie: Yeah but he...unicorns...

Laura: I think it's silvery just because he's a ghost.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, they're white and transparent, I think the blood is just silvery because of the composition of a ghost's body.

Micah: All right, Laura, so how can he keep Peeves under control?

Jamie: Because he's scary as *bleep*.

Laura: Yeah, obviously there's something about him that scares Peeves.

Micah: Just like Dumbledore.

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Meaning Dumbledore can also keep... Well, then what do you think it is about him that scares him?

Andrew: Yeah, what can the Bloody Baron do to Peeves?

Jamie: No, he can, I mean, if it goes back to what we were talking about how ghosts can touch, then clearly, it could be something physical he can do to Peeves.

The Fat Friar

Micah: So, the Fat Friar. How do you guys think he died?

Jamie: He doesn't seem particularly interesting, the Fat Friar, does he? He just...

Andrew: No.

Laura: No.

Jamie: He, yeah, but as it says here. Sorry, I mean, what I mean is, I have a point. He tries to get Peeves invited to the opening feast in Sorcerer's Stone and so he seems to be extremely forgiving and he doesn't care. He's just happy-go-lucky. Why is he like that? Do you think it represents the house?

Laura: Well, he's a Hufflepuff.

Jamie: Well, yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: What? So, [laughs] yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, it sounds like he represents the house.

Ben: Maybe he was too trusting in his life and that's why he got killed.

Jamie: In his previous life. A bit like Dumbledore.

Andrew: Oh, yeah. Good speculation, Ben.

Micah: So you're saying Dumbledore's a Hufflepuff?

Andrew: No. [laughs]

The Grey Lady

Micah: All right, the final house ghost, the Grey Lady from Ravenclaw. We really don't know a whole lot about her. We don't really see her that much in the books, but Jamie maybe you know something about this, there are various Grey Lady ghost stories that exist in London. Is that true?

Jamie: Ummm, I have heard a few, yeah. Lady Jane Grey was the great-granddaughter of Henry VII and she reigned as Queen, but she was actually uncrowned and she only reigned for nine days, which, you know, is absolutely nothing. And then I think she was beheaded at the Tower of London. So, yeah, that's why her ghost is reported to haunt it. But, she's supposed to haunt other castles as well in different places - haunted places. So, I mean, is there anything there? Like, maybe the Grey Lady was only at Hogwarts for nine days and then she got killed?

Andrew: Yeah, I was going to say maybe... Yeah. [laughs]

Jamie: A bit unlike...

Andrew: Maybe Dumbledore felt bad for her, so he was like, "Come be a house ghost."

Jamie: Yeah, yeah, well, don't worry you can become a House ghost.

Ben: How about Professor Binns? How did he...

Andrew: Can we stay on top of Grey Lady for a second?

Jamie: Yeah, Ben, yeah, Ben.

Andrew: Not literally on top of her, I mean...

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: We'd just fall through and hit the ground.

Micah: So, it's possible that Jo took the name from there?

Jamie: Oh, I'm sure she did. Yeah.

Laura: Yeah, there's really no doubt behind that.

Andrew: That would probably the most reasonable explanation for...

Jamie: Yeah, but she's a very mysterious ghost. I think we hear once that she was floating by or something like that but we didn't hear anything about her. Perhaps we'll find something new in Book Seven?

Micah: I think she's in Half-Blood Prince, if I remember. They said some ghost went by as Harry was talking to Hagrid about overhearing the conversation between Snape and Dumbledore.

Andrew: Oh.

Micah: She seems to be around at kind of interesting times because they said in the movie for Chamber of Secrets and I don't know if this was in the books too. It was a scene that was cut out where - it's the first time that Harry goes to open Tom Riddle's diary.

Andrew: Yeah?

Micah: And he tells the Grey Lady to get lost.

Jamie: No, he doesn't, does he?

Andrew: Oh?

Jamie: Really?

Andrew: It's a deleted scene.

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: Oh, sorry. It's a deleted scene, I see. Sorry.

Micah: But, I don't know.

Andrew: Why would they cut that? What was in replace of it? Just without the Grey Lady going behind him?

Micah: Yeah, I think so.

Andrew: Do you think Jo could have any involvement in that or they just realized maybe it served no purpose?

Jamie: Oh, she could have had, yeah. If it's like...

Laura: She could have, but, I mean, I think it was...

Andrew: How do we know it's the Grey Lady?

Laura: Yeah, I mean, I just think it was another cut they were...


Micah: So, going back to Peeves, why do you guys think he's allowed to stay at Hogwarts? Why does Dumbledore let him?

Andrew: I think that's just Dumbledore's got a soft spot in his heart.

Laura: Yeah, I think Dumbledore is kind of amused by him, to be honest.

Ben: I think there's some other reason. I don't know what, but there's some other reason.

Andrew: Why? Kicking him out would just be mean and that's not like Dumbledore.

Micah: But, he's also a poltergeist. He's not an actual ghost.

Ben: What's the difference?

Jamie: One's mean.

Laura: Poltergeists were never alive.

Micah: Well, actually...

Jamie: Oh, is that true?

Laura: Yeah, poltergeists are pure energy, it's what they are. I mean, poltergeists are actually considered to be real things. Not like the ones you see in the movies, but, especially like young teenagers, like 13 or 14-year old girls exhibit so much electrical energy that they can actually make stuff fall over when they're really angry.

Jamie: Ahhh.

Laura: And that's considered a poltergeist.

Ben: Let's see...

Laura: So, it's actually, it's kind of a manifestation of a residence, I think.

Ben: Hold on. Hold on, noisy ghosts...

Micah: It says it's a jerk. And a noisy ghost... Yeah.

Ben: Poltergeists are invisible masses of spirit or energy that may or may not be connected to a living human agent. Some of the most common poltergeist activities include loud, unexplained noise, levitation, the moving of objects, and electrical problems. It's from Google.

Andrew: Okay, so there's no stopping Peeves, so it's not like Dumbledore can be mad at him for doing what he's doing.

Jamie: No, I'm sure that Dumbledore could get him out if he wanted to, though. There's no way he couldn't find a way. Well, he couldn't now, he's dead.

Laura: I think Peeves probably came with Hogwarts, kind of like the way...

Jamie: Maybe it's Slytherin.

Laura: elves come with houses.

Andrew: Hmmm.

Jamie: Could be.

Ben: I don't know.

Jamie: No, I was just going to say, Laura can't be right because Hogwarts predates Nearly Headless Nick, so the ghosts of the thing obviously came afterwards.

Laura: But poltergeists aren't ghosts of people. [laughs] That's the thing.

Jamie: Yeah, I know.

Ben: They can be though.

Jamie: But, Ben's just...

Laura: No, no, no, no, no. The definition you read said that it can be connected to a person, meaning it can be caused by a person.

Jamie: But...

Laura: Not that it's a person's spirit.

Ben: Right. But it's the same thing, it means "noisy ghost."

Laura: No, it's not.

Professor Binns

Micah: All right, wrapping up the ghost discussion - Professor Binns. He didn't even notice that he was dead, he just got up from teaching one day and kept on teaching.

Jamie: He must have realized when he tried to sort of put a sausage roll in his mouth and it just fell down and hit the ground.

[Micah laughs]

Jamie: He must know heís dead now. Heíd have to be gormless, very gormless.

Micah: Maybe not.

Ben: So he just fell asleep by the fireplace? Isn't that what happened?

Jamie: And died and then...

Laura: Yeah.

Jamie: up, so he must have had unfinished business as well. But you know, is to impart knowledge of goblins into the minds of young, eager students.

Ben: What did he die from? Do you know?

Laura: Old age, I think. I donít think it was terribly specific.

Jamie: No.

Andrew: He fell into it.

Jamie: Yeah [laughs]

Micah: And this question [laughs], itís kind of far out there but he taught Tom Riddle. Do you think he can provide any useful information for Harry?

Laura: I think that was what Slughorn was for.

Micah: Yeah, I agree with that.

Jamie: Yeah, thatís true.

Micah: Well, whatís left?

Andrew: I mean, well, he could tell Harry about Tom Riddle. Is that...

Laura: I donít think so though.

Andrew: ...what the question was about?

Laura: Because, you see, he doesnít pay that much attention to the students anyway.

Andrew: It doesnít matter, I mean, well...

Laura: He keeps calling Harry "Mr. Perkins" or something...

Jamie: But Laura, he...

Laura: ...he doesnít even call him by his last name.

Jamie: Yeah, but he knows a lot about the Chamber of Secrets. So if he knows about that, he clearly know stuff about Hogwartsí folklore legend and stuff, although of course, he said it didnít exist which was incorrect; wrong.

Andrew: I mean. And plus, it was a really long time ago that he taught Tom, so he could possibly, I donít know. You would know something about your students, like heís got to know about Harry. After teaching him, heís got to gather some information about him. Like maybe he knows a weakness or something.

Laura: I guess.

Andrew: I donít know, you never know, there could be a whole back-story to it.

Laura: Maybe, I just think that the purpose that Slughorn served was to provide insight on Tom Riddle as a student at Hogwarts. I think thatís already been taken care of.

Jamie: Mhm, agreed.

Andrew: Yep, all right, that concludes our discussion on some ghosts at Hogwarts. Was it spooky?

[Laughs comically with Ben].

Listener Rebuttal - Ron and the Brains

Andrew: Before we get into our little Halloween debate, first, we have a rebuttal from Mark from Northern Ireland, age 29. He writes:

"With regards to the idea that Ron may have suffered lasting effects as a result of his attack by a brain. You should remember the quote by Dumbledore where Dumbledore does say:

'Well, Harry' said Dumbledore, finally turning away from the baby bird, 'you will be pleased to hear that none of your fellow students are going to suffer lasting damage from the nightís events'.

Dumbledore made it clear to Harry that none of his friends, including Ron, will suffer no lasting damage, although J.K.R. briefly reminds us about lingering scars on Ronís arm in Half-Blood Prince. In the chapter "Hermioneís Helping Hand," there is a passage that reads:

'You can still see the marks where that awful woman made you write with your own blood, but you stuck to your own story anyway.'

She says to Harry. And then Ron says:

'You can still see where those brains got a hold on me in the Ministry of Magic, look,' said Ron shaking back his sleeves.'

'And it doesnít hurt that youíve grown about a foot over the summer either,' Hermione finished."

[laughs] Hermione, youíre so funny. So, what do you guys think? I mean, this is interesting because, on the one hand, Dumbledore is saying that there is no lasting damage, but what is he talking about? Physically or mentally?

Jamie: Exactly. I think that Dumbledore would think that, you know, physical damage is absolutely nothing. The complete opposite of what Voldemort would think, who would think that physical damage is terrible...

Micah: Right.

Laura: Mhm.

Jamie: You know. I think that Dumbledore would always consider thereís no lasting mental damage, but he might have a few scars, which is nothing to what Dumbledore would, you know.

Andrew: Right. Thatís a good way to look at it.

Laura: I think that it can go either way honestly.

Debate: Halloween

Andrew: Yeah. Moving on to our debate now. Todayís debate topic is: Trick-or-Treating is a morally vapid delinquent activity that exploits the fear of human beings into giving material gifts. Jamie and I are affirming and Micah and Laura are denying, and Ben will make his decision at the end. Jamie, you got two minutes. Go!

Jamie: Okay, while Trick-or-Treating is extremely, you know, important to children and they think itís quite a bit of fun, it really is very, very morally vapid. And, you know, itís delinquent activity because people think that dressing up in costumes is fun, itís scary, but they donít realize the implications of what theyíre doing. You just imagine, youíre 85-years old sitting at home and somebody knocks on your door.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: You think, ďItís got to be a visitor,Ē because at that age, youíve lived in a different generation, and you think that everyone, you know, is being nice. When you open the door, you donít realize that itís a joking child. You see a person with a knife and automatically, you think, you know, this could be very bad. Itís dangerous or bad things can happen. The only good thing that can come out of it is free candy, and things that are free arenít really free. So...

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: ...when a child takes that free bit of candy, he thinks itís free, but really, it could cost a dear, dear old person their, you know...

Ben: Dignity.

Jamie: ...enjoyment for that evening. Yeah, their dignity. It couldíve hurt them, you know, mentally to open the door and see somebody there. Also, getting things for free...

Ben: One minute, Andrew.

Jamie: Okay, go, Andrew.

Andrew: Not only that, you will be footing a bill for getting all those cavities taken out of your teeth.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: Because you eat so much candy that night that you wonít have teeth. Not only that, I agree with Jamie; it is dangerous. My T.V. tech teacher told me a story once where his friend would put staples [laughs] into the candy and give it to kids

Jamie: Yeah. Loads of children have died.

Andrew: And these kids would eat it and then hurt themselves really bad because youíre chewing on staples. [laughs] No, wait, were they staples? Or were they nails? Oh, no, they were thumbtacks [laughs] inside the candy and itís just terrible. Itís very dangerous. You never know whatís going into your candy.

Jamie: Yeah, also, also, things that are free arenít automatically good. You shouldnít get things free now-a-days. You should buy your candy. You should work hard, manual labor, buy your candy, thatís the way the world goes around. Go!

Ben: Okay, that concludes [laughs] the affirmative.

[Andrew giggles]

Laura and Micah...

Andrew: We won.

Ben: ...tell me, tell me, why is Trick-or-Treating not morally vapid?

Laura: Well, I think first of all, if you want to say that itís bad to get things for free, then you need to get rid of Christmas, not Halloween.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: And like any other holiday, itís just something for people to look forward to. Itís Joís favorite holiday; I donít think sheíd endorse something that was morally vapid. Itís a celebration passed down, which originally was honored the dead. Which, you know, isnít a bad thing. And saying that Halloween causes delinquency is like saying...

[Andrew and Micah laughs]

Laura: ...that Harry Potter creates Satanism. So, youíre wrong.

Ben: Mic-er?

Micah: I mean, Halloween brings about a sense of community too, youíre going around and youíre interacting with your neighbors...

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: You know? if youíre getting something free out of it, I donít see how thatís wrong, and dressing up.

Laura: And see, I donít know about you, Andrew, but my parents always checked my candy [laughs] to make sure no one put anything in it, maybe...

Micah: And honestly...

Laura: ...maybe nobody did that for you.

Andrew: Is it open now?

Micah: Thatís sort of...

Jamie: No, not yet.

Micah: ...morally vapid on the sense on the person providing the candy, not the kids going out and Trick-or-Treating.

Laura: Exactly.

Jamie: Okay, okay, a community, you say, Laura you say that in... Sorry, Micah, you said that it encourages...

Micah: Yeah, because I sound like Laura.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: ...a community. How does it encourage community? Iíve never, ever seen dressing up as scary figures encouraging, you know, friendship and stuff like that. Laura, you said...

Laura: Well, Jamie, you wouldnít...

Jamie: You said... Laura, Laura, Laura...

Laura: ...know. Youíve never gone Trick-or-Treating.

Jamie: ...Laura, Laura, Trick-or-Treating...

Andrew: I second Jamieís motion...

Jamie: ...teaches people to interrupt...

Andrew: an experienced Trick-or-Treater.

Jamie: Yeah, there you go, see? And also, you said that the proper holiday was, you know, brought down from All Hallows Eve, celebrating the dead. I fail to see how going out, engaging in juvenile delinquent and immature activity...

Laura: Okay, people...

Jamie: ...encourages a proper holiday.

Laura: Jamie, people are going to participate in delinquent activity whether thereís Halloween or not.

Jamie: No, itís... They should be at home reading a book.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: They should be, I donít know how it increases... It just teaches people that they can get things for free by scaring people.

Laura: So does Christmas and Easter and...

Jamie: Yes, it does.

Laura: ...every other holiday.

Jamie: Itís all commercialized.

Andrew: Itís the season of giving.

Jamie: Yeah.

Andrew: This is not the season of giving. We're not there yet.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: They should be...

Micah: Jamie, just because you got egged and toilet papered as a kid doesn't mean that you have to hate Halloween.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: Okay.

Andrew: I've got one word for you all. In the words of Steve Irwin [does Steve impression] "Danger!" It's dangerous, it's very dangerous.

Jamie: All the bad things that can happen do not outweigh - sorry, do outweigh all the good things that could happen.

Andrew: You could hurt yourself.

Jamie: It's just, there are so many things that could go wrong with it. The parents are letting children - and it's normally children, of course, who go trick or treating. They are letting them out of their sight. In today's world, you don't know who is out there.

Micah: They walk around with them! What are you talking about!

Laura: [laughs] Yeah.

Jamie: They could knock on somebody's door, a very dangerous door, and open it and they could be - there could be people there who...

Laura: Okay, that is not the responsibility of the holiday, that's the responsibility of the parent.

Jamie: You're absolutely... Laura, You're absolutely right.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: They can go trick or treating and get taken in by a [pronounces it ďpee-do-fileĒ] pedophile...

[Micah laughs]

Jamie: And bad things can happen. But it's fine because All Hollowís Eve is celebration of the dead. Is it right to encourage it and increase it by [laughs] this? It's just, it's just dangerous, it's a dangerous activity. Everyone will still have fun without it. Children - there are other ways to have fun than going out, on your own or with parents because some people do it on their own, and knocking on doors and getting free candy. It's...

Micah: It's one day out of the year, though!

Jamie: There are economic reasons, educational reasons, social reasons.

Laura: What are the economic reasons, Jamie?

[Ben, Andrew, Laura and Jamie laugh]

Laura: What are the economic reasons?

Jamie: The people should be taught the value of money, Laura.

Micah: I'm sure Hershey and Nestle and all those companies don't have any problem with the economic reasons.

Jamie: You cannot get things free by scaring people. That is not what you should be taught when you are young.

[Ben laughs]

Laura: You don't scare people! People open up the door and gush about how cute the little kids are in front of them.

[Ben and Andrew laugh]

Jamie: Yeah, because people dressed as Grim Reapers with blood pouring down them. Oh, lovely! I think they're cute.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Okay, Andrew...

[Andrew laughs]

Ben: Laura - Laura and Micah. You have one minute to tell me why you should win.

Laura: I think that... I mean, there's no question. It's a holiday that creates community. If you want to say get rid of Halloween, then you have to say get rid of Christmas, because there are tons of dangers that can come up with Christmas. I mean, come on, you've got a fat guy coming down your chimney. [laughs]

Micah: [laughs] If that's not a pedophile, I don't know what is.

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: Anything else?

Jamie: That is a good argument so far.

[Laura laughs]

Micah: And it's a holiday. You're not getting rid of it, you're not going to change it no matter what happens.

Laura: Yeah, and like I said, you can't say that Halloween causes people to run out and be delinquents. People are delinquents everyday. [laughs]

Jamie: Okay, can we go now, Ben?

Laura: It's just an excuse.

Ben: Five seconds.

Jamie: It's been about five minutes.

Ben: Two, one. Okay, Andrew and Jamie, why, why?

Jamie: Okay. Laura, you have changed this completely saying that we should get rid of the holiday. We shouldn't get rid of the holiday, the holiday is a celebration of the dead. People should use Halloween to remember love ones past, not go around.

Andrew: Yeah!

Jamie: When you think of Halloween, you think of Trick-or Treating. You think of getting material gain. Material gain is a bad thing, okay.

Andrew: Yeah!

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: But we should be celebrating our -

Micah: So, you don't want those Lucky Charms?

Laura: Okay, so...

Ben: No, no, no, no! You guys can't interrupt! You guys can't interrupt.

[Laura laughs]

Andrew: Yeah! [laughs]

Ben: Shut up, you can't interrupt. They didn't interrupt you, so shut up.

Jamie: It is important to remember the true meaning of holidays. Christmas: the birth of Jesus Christ; Halloween: remembering the dead. We shouldn't commercialize things. Yes, we have commercialized all these holidays, we shouldn't do it though. Halloween we should go back and go back to its roots. Remember the dead. Trick-or-Treating is dangerous - it can be very dangerous. It teaches people the wrong things. It encourages them to egg houses - that is not good in today's world. You can't go around doing that, but it teaches them that it's fine because it's a joke. But it's not a joke. They then think it's funny to do it. They do it at other times, it turns into bricks.

Andrew: Yeah.

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: They cause complete stuff - bad things to property. It is not a good idea.

Ben: Okay, okay. That's it.

Andrew: Hey, let me... I have one last thing. It's not Trick-or-Treat: it's trick or DIE!

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: I agree.

Andrew: Thank you.

Ben: Something that was funny about that entire time was the only input Andrew added was [does impression of Andrew] "Yeah".

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: I know.

Jamie: That was an awesome ending, Andrew. I liked that.

Andrew: Thanks.

Ben: Okay, I'm going to have to vote with Andrew and Jamie.

[Andrew, Ben, and Jamie laugh]

Jamie: Yeah.

Ben: And here's why. Here's why, it's because...

Laura: Here is why: because Ben has a pattern of not voting for the team that Laura is on. Iíve noticed this.

[Andrew and Micah laugh]

Ben: No.

[Andrew laughs]

Ben: Not true, not true. I beat you. I debated against you and beat you once. Anyways - no. Here is why, here's why. Laura and Micah were focusing on saying, "Well, the holiday is not going to be eliminated anyway and it creates community." But when you look to what we were debating over is that: "Trick-or-Treating is a morally vapid delinquent activity that exploits the fear of human beings into giving material gifts," and that is what Andrew and Jamie focused on. They focused on the fact that it's promoting the...

Andrew: Yeah!

Jamie: Yeah!

[Laura laughs]

Ben: ...what tangible gifts you get out of the holiday, rather than focusing on the true meaning of Halloween.

Andrew: Death.

Ben: You guys, Laura and Micah, brought up Christmas. "Well, what about Christmas; that encourages it too." Jamie and Andrew weren't saying that Christmas is okay, they were saying that it's all bad. It's all bad. You guys never actually denied the fact that it's encouraging kids one night of the year to go out and egg peoples houses and toilet paper them. So, yep.

Laura: Actually, we did, Ben. [laughs]

Ben: Huh?

Laura: That was - our big thing was saying Halloween doesn't cause delinquency.

Ben: Yes, it does though.

Laura: People are delinquents everyday.

Ben: No, they are. But that's one night where it's like everyone goes out and does it.

Jamie: It encourages it, though.

Ben: Yeah.

Laura: Okay.

Jamie: Yes they are everyday, but it still encourages them.

Laura: Okay, people do that at Christmas too. People do that on holidays.

Ben: No, they don't!

Laura: Yes, they do!

Ben: Not nearly as much, not nearly as much.

Andrew: No, nobody causes trouble on Christmas. [laughs]

Ben: Yeah, who goes out and eggs houses on Christmas?

Laura: Oh, please!

Andrew: I've never heard of that to be honest with you.

Laura: People...

Jamie: Laura...

Laura: People use excuses...

Ben: She made it up.

[Jamie laughs]

Laura: No, I didn't.

Jamie: But, Laura...

Andrew: Alright well, we'll see what the listeners think.

Ben: Your vote.

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