Who Did Voldemort Kill to Make the Horcruxes?

Jamie: I wonder, okay, just digressing slightly, I wonder who he would kill to make his Horcruxes? Because it’s, like, Dumbledore was talking about...

Andrew: The people he needs to.

Jamie: Well, no, no. Dumbledore was talking about how, if Nagini was a snake, then he would have killed Frank, the housekeeper, to make her, but you think he’d reserve his Horcruxes for particularly special deaths, just like he reserved special items to contain his Horcruxes. I don’t know, though.

Andrew: I – obviously he has no problem with killing anyone, so I think he would, he would kill people who have items that he would be able to hide and protect, and the items would probably have some special value to them.

Laura: I think I understand where Jamie’s going here, though. For instance, would you think that - I mean, to make a Horcrux. Like if you consider that not everyone’s souls are equal, not everyone is as smart as one another, you can’t say that all Horcruxes are going to be as powerful or, you know, as potent or whatever. So, why wouldn’t he save it for more special murders, people who are more powerful?

Jamie: But it depends how you measure a soul. I mean, if you kill Dumbledore and make a Horcrux, would that be the most powerful Horcrux ever? I mean, like, I doubt that Frank, the housekeeper... [Laura laughs]

Jamie: ...has much magical power. And if he came back from the dead to help Harry, what would he do? Hold the lantern?

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: So he could see where he was going? You know? I just – I don’t know.

Going Through The Veil

Micah: I just thought that it was a good idea. I mean, especially when you talk about a sort of hero’s journey, having to go to the underworld and all that kind of a thing. It would make sense that these would be the type of people that he would have to encounter in order to gain information, possibly. I think maybe instead of sort of leading the way, maybe it would be something more along the lines of telling them what was a special item to them. Maybe where the Horcruxes would be located, even.

Laura: Yeah. My only problem with this theory is that it was very clearly specified in Order of the Phoenix that once a spirit decides to go on, they can’t come back, or they won’t come back. So, I can’t see spirits like Sirius or Dumbledore or, frankly, Harry’s parents, coming back to help him because they...

Micah: So you completely trashed the whole idea of spirits returning to earth. [laughs]

Laura: No, no, no, I’m not. No, no, no, I’m not trashing that idea, what I think is there’s kind of a - it could be more of a sinister connotation. Just like you know...

Micah: Well no, what I’m saying is that what if he goes to them?

Laura: Well, yeah, that could happen too.

Micah: Not they come to him.

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: Yeah, that’s my point.

Laura: I think that that’s probably a bit more likely. Something else that I was considering was that perhaps evil spirits could return from wherever they go. We don’t really have any proof that only good or bad spirits go beyond the veil.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: We don’t know if both go there. So, what if Voldemort has some evil spell that conjures up all of his past followers and stuff?

Andrew: How is Harry going to be able to get to the spirits? Through the veil?

Laura: He’s going to jump through the veil, Andrew.

Jamie: What...

Andrew: You really think?

Jamie: What, and hold on...

Laura: No. [laughs]

Jamie: ...with one hand so he doesn’t fall through completely?

Andrew: No well, I’m just asking. How do you think he is going to be able to get through...

Jamie: He’s going to...

Andrew: ...to get to the spirits?

Jamie: He is going to... Actually, okay surely...

Andrew: He’s going to have to discover something else that’s going to lead him to that.

Jamie: No, no. No, no, surely...

Andrew: He’s not just going to walk in to spirit alley.

Laura: Maybe he has to die.

Jamie: Surely – oh Laura, stop being so negative.

[Laura and Andrew laugh]

Jamie: Surely, you can just pull the cover off the veil across and just look in and – without actually falling down.

Andrew: Well, if you ...

Laura: Well...

Andrew: ...so much as touch it...

Laura: You can’t really...

Andrew: ...apparently you get a burnt hand so...

Jamie: Or if you get one of those like fiber optic things...

Laura: Get a stick. [laughs]

Jamie: ...that are used for keyhole surgery and put it down and then look down. You wouldn’t actually have to go down. You’re fine.

Laura: But there’s nothing to look down at because, remember, Harry went around both sides of it and there was nothing.

Jamie: No, but if you grab the material over it and pull that away, you know?

Andrew: How are you going to be able to grab it? I don’t think...

Jamie: I don’t know! I haven’t thought this out. You use one of the...

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: You go to an arcade and grab that thing that goes down and grabs the teddy bears and use that to grab it.

Andrew: The claw.

[Micah laughs]

Jamie: He can stand by the side and, you know...

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: Trust me, there’s a way. There’s a way.

Andrew: Okay.

Jamie: Actually, I don’t know if there’s a way. There probably isn’t a way actually. [Laura laughs]

Andrew: So I mean I’m just looking at the discussion list here. Are there certain spirits that might come back? We basically just talked about that.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Are there certain spirits that might come back? We basically just talked about that.

Laura: [laughs] Yeah.

Who Else Can Come Back?

Andrew: Is there anyone else who could possibly come back besides the Horcrux owners? The - Dumbledore, Sirius, Harry's parents?

Laura: What about Grindelwald? We've heard a lot about him, but there's not been much explanation as to what exactly happened between him and Dumbledore. And now that Dumbledore is dead, what if Grindelwald - what if Grindelwald's kind of like Voldemort? Like, what if he never really died?

Jamie: Actually, yeah, because...

Laura: It never said that he killed him; it just said he defeated him.

Jamie: Defeated. I was going to make that point!

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: Sorry.

Jamie: I completely agree and I was just going to point out that it said that he - Dumbledore was famed for his defeat of the dark wizard Grindelwald. But also, it says on that card that he's famed for it, but no one's ever mentioned it. You know? It's like - it seems like a big thing on the chocolate frog cards, but it doesn't in the rest of the series.

Andrew: Mention it how? Just in a discussion? Like, "Hey..."

Jamie: Yeah. [laughs]

Andrew: "...you see that Grindelwald?"

Jamie: Yeah. [laughs] "So, you, you defeated Grindelwald, didn't you?"

Andrew: Yeah.

Jamie: "Yeah, I did. Yeah. Long time ago, though."

Andrew: [laughs] Okay, so this event - Laura, you're... Laura and Micah, you guys are sort of saying that this is going to be an event, like it's going to be like a, it's going to be like a - oh, what am I looking for? The fifth year, what are they called? Oh, it's going to be like a high school reunion where everyone comes back, only it's going to be a Horcrux reunion and everyone's going to come back on one night and be like "Hey! We're back!"

Laura: Ummm...

Andrew: Is that what you're going for?

[Laura laughs]

Rowling Taking From Tolkien?

Micah: You know what's interesting, though? When I read that...

[Micah and Laura laughs]

When it says, "the veil between the world of the living and the dead is at its thinnest and spirits may return to the world of the living," I never read the books, but the movies, The Lord of the Rings, it kind of reminded me of when they went to the underworld to bring back all those spirits. We know that JKR does read...

Ben: Really?

Micah: ...Tolkein, so...

Laura: [laughs] We know that she reads.

Jamie: [laughs] We know that she reads, yeah. [laughs]

Micah: [laughs] But, I don't know, that's just a connection I'm trying to make.

Laura: Well, yeah, I understand. There's...

Micah: Perhaps she's taking something from him.

Targeting Halloween

Andrew: Now, honestly, I don't really see what the big deal about the - about what this could mean. But could this have - could this event not happen on Halloween? I mean, the only reason we - you're saying it's going to is because it's hallows, All Hallows Eve.

Jamie: No. No, no, no, no. No, the reason they're saying it is because the veil between the living and the dead is supposed to be weakest then, so it's like if you do a séance, then it should, potentially, in this type of...

Laura: Well, it's also... It's also kind of...

Andrew: Oh, I see.

Jamie: ...stuff, be easier to contact the dead.

Laura: It's also kind of talking about the general layout of the books. Usually the big climactic thing happens in what? June? End of the school year? So it would be kind of - kind of weird if the book started in July or whenever and then [laughs] ended in October. You see what I'm saying?

Andrew: Yeah, I was just thinking, what if it's...

Ben: Yeah. Hmmm.

Andrew: ...a completely different time format for the books, where you're not going through a full year? Like you were saying, it just goes July to October. You don't see Christmas, you don't see spring again, you don't see the end of the year. It's just...

Jamie: No, what happens is she writes, "Harry awoke to a blissfully cold October morning." [laughs]

[Andrew laughs]

Jamie: And then it's like, advance five months. [laughs]

What if Deathly Hallows Isn't Related to Halloween?

Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [laughs] Laura, why do you want to talk about if this event didn't happen on Halloween?

Laura: Well, like I just said, it would kind of change the entire layout of the books. I mean...

Andrew: Oh.

Laura: ...it wouldn't span over as great of a period of time.

Andrew: Well, it could.

Laura: It would make things very different. Well, no, it wouldn't.

Andrew: It... Well...

Laura: July to October is not...

Ben: Well, what if it was November 1st?

Laura: ...the same as July to June. [laughs]

[Jamie laughs]

Andrew: No, but I'm not saying everything has to end on Halloween. Something else in the books could happen through the rest of the year. But I get what you're saying.

Laura: So you're saying...

Andrew: I...

Laura: Well, I guess it could do that. I mean, that could happen on Halloween and it could be a factor throughout the entire book.

Andrew: But Jo does want to make this a completely different book, I think, so that would be very interesting - if the book only spanned across a two or three month time period.

Jamie: Yeah. [laughs] One day. That would be awesome. [laughs]

Andrew: [laughs] One day, yeah. It's like 24. The whole season is 24 hours.

Jamie: [laughs] Yeah. It's just like 24. And it counts down to like, 1 a.m. to 2 a.m. - Harry sleeps.

Have We Met Those Voldemort Killed To Make His Horcruxes?

Laura: Well, here's a question. Do we think that any of the people that Voldemort killed in order to make his Horcruxes are people that we know or have heard of?

Jamie: Yeah, like...

Laura: Or are they completely different characters?

Jamie: Don't you think, the thing is, all through the books, they point towards important people like when Moody was showing Harry the picture of the Order of the Phoenix, he was like, "Dorcas Meadowes, Voldemort killed her personally," and stuff like that. So, Voldemort obviously thinks that some people are more worthy of - of respect and stuff than other people in terms of their magical powers. So, I don't know.

Comparing Theories

Andrew: All right. So, I personally think that... I think... I like this theory more than the one that we talked about last week. One, because this one is less - how do I put it? Archaic. And I think it would make more sense for something like this to happen where these spirits would return. I like all the evidence there.

Laura: Well, this one - this theory isn't as symbolic. I think that's the big difference, and I think that both theories can apply.

Andrew: Mhm.

Laura: I think that Jo...

Andrew: It’s not as Greek. [laughs]

Laura: Well, I know, but she likes the symbolism.

Andrew: Uh huh.

Jamie: But isn’t it sort of - it’s, I mean, Harry Potter is a fantasy, but if you see ghosts coming back from the dead, it just turns into a - I don’t know. You know? Even...

Laura: Paranormal?

Jamie: Well, no, even in Aladdin, where it’s the biggest fantasy thing of all time, the genie says you can’t bring people back from the dead. So, if it happens in Harry Potter, I don’t know. I don’t think - I won’t say it would spoil it.

Laura: But they won’t be back from the dead.

Jamie: But they’ll be, they'll be... I mean, I don’t know.

Andrew: They’re in spirit form, but we know that they exist, because you can hear their whispers beyond the veil.

Jamie: Will they come back in the same form as, say, when...

Ben: When they went in?

Jamie: ...Priori Incantatem happened in Book Four? Will they come back?

Laura: Well, maybe they will... No, because those weren’t even real spirits.

Jamie: No, but they were still sort of sentient and realized what was happening at that time. So, it isn’t as though they were imprints that didn’t have any knowledge of what was going on.

Andrew: Micah, you wrote up last week’s discussion. What do you think about this one, compared to last week’s? You like this one better, or what?

Micah: Well, I don’t necessarily think that they compete with each other. I think what Laura said is right.

Andrew: No, but do you think - do you think both of these could happen in the same plot, or either one at all?

Micah: Yeah, because the last one was, it was more symbolic. It was more just sort of telling the story, and kind of looking at different directions that Jo can go in, whereas this is kind of saying this is what we think the Deathly Hallows mean, whereas last week, we were more exploring the hanged man...

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: ...and what that represented.

Laura: This is plot-driven, what we’re discussing right now.

Micah: Yeah, this is more plot-driven. I think last week, we were more reading into the symbolism.

Laura: What we discussed last week is kind of like things you might have missed, is what last week was.

Micah: Yeah, like the bar and what those earlier rebuttals were saying about the hanged man being in the Weasley joke shop and...

Andrew: I think the fact that - I wish I sort of knew this last week so I could have fan-girled about it more, but I think the fact that she made it a hangman game just gives it away, that it’s going to...

Laura: I thought you guys all noticed that! [laughs]

Andrew: No! I think that just gives away that it’s going to relate directly to it! Final thoughts from anyone else? Or anyone?

Laura: Well, Jamie, what do you think? Do you think that - which theory do you think is more likely, or do you think that they are both...?

Jamie: I don’t know. I think all of these theories, there’s got to be, there has to be overlap. These are all - every single one we’ve talked about is interlinked, so I think the hanged man, there’s got to be something there. The hangman thing, the game we played, that sort of solved it for me. I think it has to be something to do with that. I like the idea that there is a veil between the living and the dead, and obviously the veil link and the one in the Department of Mysteries, and obviously, we are going back to the Department of Mysteries. So, I think that there has to be, there has to be something there, and the veil is obviously a key thing to the entire books. But, the hanged man thing, I don’t think - you’ve got the pub in Goblet of Fire where they were talking about things. So, I really, really, really like that theory. But, then I...

Andrew: Do you...

Jamie: Go on.

Andrew: No, finish.

Jamie: No, I can't think of anything. I was going to come up with something.

More Chatter on Halloween?

Andrew: Do you think that if Harry had visited the veil in Order of the Phoenix on Halloween, per se, do you think there would have been a difference in his attraction to it, or maybe what he would have heard through the veil? Laura, or Micah? I don’t know.

Laura: Well, that’s interesting. I don’t know. That’s very interesting. Like maybe the voices might have been a bit more clear.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: He might not necessarily...

Micah: Or maybe there would have been more of them.

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: Huh. That’s cool!

Jamie: Or they’d be partying!

Ben: Hmmm.

Jamie: Oh, yeah!

Andrew: Just a little thought I had.

Jamie: That’s interesting.

Laura: That’s very good. That’s very cool.

Andrew: Why don’t we tell Harry to go give it a shot? I don’t know, it makes sense!

Laura: Well, maybe that’s what he’ll do, because...

Andrew: If the barrier would be the thinnest on that day, maybe you still can’t - you probably still can’t get through it. But... Without... Well, you could. [laughs] You just wouldn’t come out alive! [laughs] Maybe you could just get the clearest idea of it. Maybe that’s why it sits there in the Department of Mysteries. Every Halloween, it’s like, "Hey! Let’s all visit the veil, see what’s new with the spirits down there!"

Laura: Well, yeah. Maybe Harry might not find out anything about Horcruxes, but maybe he’ll find out more about death, and that could sort of help him towards defeating Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah, when he goes to see it on Halloween, perhaps it doesn’t solve the mystery, but when he goes to the veil on Halloween, he will learn more that could solve something.

Ben: Y’all crazy.

Voicemail: Scrimgeour's Betrayal

Andrew: Okay. On that note, we have - we, of course, have been getting a ton of listener feedback about all of our Deathly Hallows discussion. We have some voice mails we had planned to use last week, but the show last week already had plenty of content as it was. So, we are going to play a few this week.

[Audio]: Hey, MuggleCast! This is Brantley. I was listening to Episode 67 today on my plane to Indiana, and you all were talking about who might betray Harry in Deathly Hallows. I think that a likely character might be Scrimgeour, or however you say his name, the new minister, because I was re-reading Book 6, and he seems kind of suspicious, he walks with a limp, I don’t know if that would mean anything, but, anyway, I was just wondering what you all thought. Bye! Pickles!

Laura: See, I kind of - I don't know. I don't think he would be. I think he was just more kind of a hindrance to Harry.

Ben: Yeah.

Laura: I see a lot of the Ministry people as kind of being gray area, you know?

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: I mean, they're not good, they're not bad. They're just a pain.

Andrew: Well, I think too that Harry expects them to sort of kiss up to him because they were proven wrong and he knows he was right. So they - Harry might expect them to treat him like a king, but when he doesn't, when Scrimgeour sort of treats him how he did, it's sort of, it comes off even more wild.

Laura: Not to mention, I didn't know having a limp made him evil.

Ben: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: What are you trying to say?

Andrew: Maybe he's making... Maybe, well, this is a boy or girl, whatever. It doesn't matter.

Laura: It's a guy.

Andrew: Maybe the caller was making the connection that - this is what immediately came to me. [laughs] In The Goblet of Fire film, Mad Eye Moody's got a limp. Impostor Mad-Eye Moody. That's the only thing I can think of, though.

Laura: I don't think any of the other bad guys had limps. [laughs]

Andrew: No. So, why is he bringing it up?

Laura: I don't know.

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Andrew: Alright, next voicemail.

Voicemail: Hallow = Holy

[Audio]: Just one of the many, many emails and calls you're going to get about Harry Potter 7, this is Mercedes from Maryland, and I was one of the fans who looked up the word for the meaning "hallow." And "hallow" basically means "sacred or holy". Like Halloween, we say "All Hallows Eve." So, maybe it means that death is sacred, or that sacred people die; as in everybody good dies. Or maybe it's saying that death is - it's glorifying death maybe, as if it's not such a bad thing, for any of the characters. Just like to hear what you thought about that. Thanks! Bye!

Jamie: No, don’t you think that Jo's kind of like a Gandalf-like figure who says that death is just but the next great adventure. And this is what...

Laura: I think Dumbledore said that, Jamie. Not Gandalf.

Jamie: Okay, no it wasn't, it was Gandalf...

[Ben laughs]

Jamie: ...at the Battle of the Pelennor Fields when they're about the break down the gate and Pippin's like, [imitates what can only be a hobbit accent] "Oh, sandy beaches on the..." [laughs] Actually, that was an awful accent.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: But whatever he said and then he was like, [in a deep voice] "Death? no. Death is but the next greatest adventure." So, yeah. Oh, well, perhaps Dumbledore said it as well.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: Did he say it? Ben and

Laura: Yes!

Jamie: Well, so did Gandalf.

Ben: Yes!

Jamie: And Gandalf came first. Actually no, whoever said it - that this is right, but it means "sacred" or, "holy." [laughs] Oh my god, I'm clutching at straws. Sorry.

Andrew: You're what?

Jamie: I’m clutching at straws.

Laura: I think it goes along with the kind of general meaning of the title.

Jamie: It does. It does, it does. And, it goes along with what - it could not be a bad thing, this title. You know? We think that Deathly Hallows is automatically a bad thing because it involves death, but it doesn't have to be the death of a good character and it doesn't have to be a bad thing, this death. You could say that Dumbledore's death was good. He didn't die in vain. So, I don't know. I think it could be something like that.

Laura: I like her pointing out, or suggesting really, that all sacred people die. That kind of goes along with Micah's theory that specific people were used to make the Horcruxes. Like it was intentional. What do you think, Micah?

Micah: I don't like the idea that "hallowed" would mean "holy" in the sense of religion. Maybe "holy" how she refers it to being sacred. I just don't think that Jo would cross that line. She's been very careful about not involving any type of religious...

Ben: Religion... [laughs]

Micah: ...wording in her series at all.

Laura: Well, I don't think that was what she was saying though. I think she was just kind of using a - a kind of generally referencing it.

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