MuggleCast 74 Transcript (continued)

Main Discussion: Does Voldemort Deserve to Die?

Andrew: That concludes this week's debate, now we're going to move onto this week's main discussion this week: Does Voldemort deserve to die? And Ben, you put this one together for us.

Ben: Yeah. Well, see, throughout the books, the thing that Voldemort fears most is death. You hear him talking about, "There's nothing worse than death, Dumbledore!" and all those things. So...

Andrew: Is that your Voldemort impression?

Ben: Well, I think we're going to interview Voldemort next week.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: Okay.

Ben: The scariest person on a Harry Potter podcast!

[Andrew and Eric laugh]

Should Harry Kill Voldemort?

Ben: So, my question is: if Harry is given the opportunity, should he give Voldemort what he fears most? Should he kill Voldemort?

Andrew: Why not? [laughs]

Ben: Well, Dumbledore says, over and over again, tries to remind Tom Riddle, Voldemort, that there are things far worse than death. So, do you think that Voldemort is always going to operate - do you always think that death is his greatest fear, or do you think there will be things that he'll finally figure out that there are things worse than death?

Andrew: I think he's lost too much to change his mind and actually go with what Dumbledore would think. I mean, what's he got to live for at this point? Killing Harry.

Ben: What do you think is worse than death?

Eric: Well, many people - wasn't it even said on MuggleCast that he should just become a Muggle janitor and clean a bunch of toilets or something?

Micah: [laughs] No, no, no.

Eric: For the rest of eternity?

Micah: I think I said this way back, but I think you look at Harry, and the life that he's lived, and to him, living that life may be worse than dying, because if he dies, he's reunited with everyone that he's really loved: his parents, Sirius, Dumbledore.

Andrew: I would think Harry losing his friends would be worse, to him, than death, because he knows what he has to do. He has to kill Voldemort and he knows what kind of risk he's taking, but losing Ron or Hermione...

Anything Worse Than Death For Voldemort?

Ben: Right, but is there something worse than death for Voldemort?

Andrew: Hmmm...

Kevin: I would think - I would think he would be implying the condition of Voldemort's soul in the sense of, you know, when he dies there's going... Assumably, there's more than meets the eye, it's not just death, and what he's doing on earth at the moment is destroying any chance of him ever, you know, going beyond death.

Ben: Well, I'm not only saying that but, for example, if Voldemort was able - had his magic taken away, would that be worse for him?

Andrew: Hmmm. Yeah.

Eric: He would still be a troublemaker, though is the other thing. I mean, the thing about Voldemort is he is so against dying. Yeah, I'd like to teach him a lesson, say, "Hey, this is actually what's worse than death, being a Muggle." But Voldemort's the kind of person that, as long as he has arms and legs he will, you know, create destruction - that's an oxymoron. But he will be reckless and restless. He will always - Voldemort's the kind of person who has to die because if you just turn him into - you know, unless you put him in the middle of a mountain or something for all eternity, you know, he's going to find a way to get out. He does have to die.

What Would Killing Voldemort Accomplish?

Ben: Well, that's the thing. What would killing him really accomplish, though?

Eric: No more of him, not even in the most smallest fragment of soul. And...

Andrew: And no more...

Eric: And safety and peace.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Only safety and peace for, you know, the whole wizarding world and Muggle world.

[Andrew and Kevin laugh]

Ben: But do you really think that's true, though?

Eric: That's...

Ben: Do you really think that's true?

Micah: No, I don't think that's true.

Ben: If we - if we...

Micah: I think there'll always be somebody.

Ben: Yeah. For example, if we killed Osama Bin Laden, wouldn't there still be hatred towards the U.S.?

Kevin: Yeah, there's always someone to fill in their spot, yeah.

Eric: No, you're right, evil will still be - okay, I said safety and peace, not lack of evil. I mean, evil will always be there.

Ben: Well, the safety and peace implies lack of evil.

Eric: Okay, okay, but lack of - Voldemort is the biggest piece of evil we've got in the Harry Potter series, so we can assume he's the worst thing that's going on in the world right then and there in that reality.

Andrew: When Voldemort thinks that death is the worst thing, is it the worst thing to happen to himself, or is it the worst thing to happen to anyone?

Eric: Well...

Micah: To him.

Eric: To himself, yeah.

Ben: To him especially, but he also tells Dumbledore that there's nothing worse than death. So...

Andrew: Right. Okay, so...

Micah: That's what I was going to say, though. Coming from Dumbledore, he believes personally that there are things worse than death, whereas Voldemort may not necessarily see it that way.

Fall of the Death Eaters

Andrew: What do you think would be worse to Voldemort: Death of his Death Eaters or death to himself?

Kevin: Himself, without a doubt. Yeah.

Ben: Himself, absolutely.

Eric: Himself.

Andrew: If he loses his army...

Kevin: He'll try to start over. I mean...

Eric: No, no, no. Well, remember Dumbledore said - yeah, Dumbledore said Voldemort doesn't even have an army. I mean, technically he does, but Voldemort operates alone.

Ben: But he operates by fear.

Eric: He always has.

Ben: The only reason those people are with him is because they'll be killed if they don't.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, but what I'm saying is, if his Death Eaters are gone, yeah, he'd be hurting a little bit as far as power or limit of power, you know, wrath, but Voldemort operates along anyway. Voldemort does - you know, all of his secret plans and stuff are all his own to begin with. And it wouldn't be too much - he wouldn't be unable to function. You're not going to cripple Voldemort by killing his Death Eaters. You have to go after him.

Kevin: And he doesn't - he doesn't put a value in his Death Eaters.

Eric: Yeah, it's true.

Kevin: I mean, he never truly appreciates them for what they are. So...

Eric: Or trusts them, or likes them, or anything.

Kevin: Exactly, so...

Can Harry Kill Voldemort?

Ben: Something else. Do you think that Harry could actually kill Voldemort? I mean, Harry seems to be a compassionate person; he can't perform an Unforgivable Curse, he knows that... He knew that - he saw that Voldemort grew up in the orphanage and things like that. And in Half-Blood Prince Dumbledore actually asked Harry, "Are you feeling sorry for Tom Riddle?" because of what happened to him. And you know there is always the emphasis of choices in this series, but Harry seems to know that if he was placed in the same circumstances, you know, could he have made similar choices? So, do you think that he would actually kill Voldemort?

Eric: Well, it's a good question, Ben, because of the emphasis on choices. And then the whole prophecy thing dictates that he absolutely has no choice, that one has to kill the other. So, kind of like - the whole introduction of the prophecy in Book 5 startled me because of that. It's like, "Okay, so he doesn't have a choice," or does he? Or what? But...

Andrew: But everyone agrees that he intends to right now. As it stands.

Eric: Yeah, he intends to.

Kevin: Yes, yeah.

Andrew: Until he comes face to face, Ben, do you think that's when he might...

Ben: Yeah, that's when he might back out, really. I'm not saying he's a coward.

Eric: I don't think he'll back out, though, because... Yeah, but anytime he steps up to Voldemort - if he finds a way into Voldemort's lair, wherever or whatever that might be, and is actually standing, with all Horcruxes destroyed waiting to kill Voldemort, I really don't think he's going to get soft and say, "Oh, you know you're a nice guy, let's be friends," because, I mean, look at how many people - Dumbledore, Sirius - are all dead. His parents, everybody - the whole world is in ruins, billions of people died at the hand of Voldemort. Yeah, Voldemort was what, you know, an orphan. So what? So was Harry. Harry had a bad life, he dealt with it.

Ben: What do you guys think about the series going full circle? Harry comes face-to-face with Voldemort, Voldemort says - Harry says, "I just can't do this," turns his back, Voldemort casts a spell, it rebounds again, bam!

Andrew: [laughs] It kills him that time?

Ben: Yeah.

Eric: Kills himself.

Kevin: Yeah, but...

Eric: No, I actually like that idea kind of, like, "You weak pathetic fool!" And then, "Avada Kedavra!" and then he blows it back on himself.

Andrew: But wouldn't that be a very anticlimactic...

Kevin: Yeah, yeah, it would definitely without... Yeah.

Andrew: If I can even finish saying the word. Climactic. But I think what's going to drive Harry is his parents and Dumbledore, both...

Eric: And Sirius.

Andrew: And Sirius, yeah.

Eric: And pretty much the whole wizarding...

Micah: Yeah, but Voldemort didn't kill Sirius and he didn't kill Dumbledore.

Eric: Voldemort...

Andrew: No, but it was because of Voldemort.

Eric: Yeah, Voldemort planted the image that Sirius was, you know, trapped in the Ministry. Voldemort did it all.

Andrew: It doesn't matter - right, right. He, yeah, he caused all that...

Micah: I think...

Eric: Voldemort was behind everything. Without Voldemort none of that would've happened.

Micah: The bigger question, though is not, "Is Harry going to want to?" But, "Can Harry actually do it?" I don't think he can cast Avada Kedavra.

Andrew: Why not?

Eric: Okay, but if we're going to - if we're going to...

Ben: It takes more...

Andrew: What do you need to cast Avada Kedavra?

Ben: It takes more than sheer hatred, as Bellatrix said.

Eric: Well, it's not even just hatred...

Ben: You have to want to do it.

Eric:'s the helplessness. Harry is helpless because of the loss of all of his people. That - I think if he concentrated on all the people that were killed who were close to him at the hand of Voldemort, he could cast Avada Kedavra. Not only that, but if we're going to assume that he can actually destroy Voldemort's Horcruxes, we should - we should believe that he could kill Voldemort.

Andrew: Yeah. So should going through all of that. And maybe...

Ben: Well, that's different, though. That's different. Killing - removing the piece of soul from an inanimate object is different than killing a person.

Eric: Yeah, I know, but a lot of inanimate objects have the benefit that Voldemort does not, which is that they can be stowed away in a secret area. Voldemort's always active, and as a result of that, you always can find him if you look hard enough or for long enough.

Ben: That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying it's a lot different when you kill a person because you're actually taking a life out of someone.

Andrew: That's true, but going to find all the Horcruxes is going to take a lot of work, so I mean the whole time he's searching for those Horcruxes, he's going to intend to kill Voldemort, and once he gets to that moment, yes, I agree that he might have a hard time looking him - looking Voldemort into the eyes and actually casting Avada Kedavra on him.

Eric: Well, he can't ever...

Ben: Well, he can't - he can't. He has to kill him some other way because of Priori Incantatem.

Kevin: That's true, that's true. Yeah.

Eric: We don't know what's up with Ollivander, though.

Kevin: Yeah, but what can Ollivander do about that?

Andrew: What does that have to do with anything?

Kevin: Yeah.

Harry's Blood, The Gleam of Triumph and Life Debts

Micah: You know, we talked last week about the fact that Harry's blood's running through Voldemort, do you think that's going to weaken him in any way?

Kevin: There must...

Micah: Do you think that's how he can kill him?

Kevin: There has to be something with it. Yeah. I mean, there's going to be something that - it's not...

Eric: Well, let's not forget Pettigrew still owes a life debt to...

Kevin: Yeah.

Ben: Well, I think - JK Rowling said in the interview with Emerson and Melissa that the - when Dumbledore has the gleam of triumph in his eye, that is enormously significant and we all know that he got the gleam of triumph when Harry told him that Voldemort used his blood. So, that's definitely... To me, that's - that's how he's going to - it has something to do with that.

Kevin: Something - yeah, it's pivotal, yeah.

Eric: You kind of get the idea that even though he can touch Harry now - skin-to-skin contact - fandom, fanfic writers everywhere rejoice, but it might actually pack a more powerful punch as a result of that.

Ben: That and...

Eric: Like, "Oh by the way, by the way, heir of Slytherin, you have Gryffindor blood in you," or something like that. Aaah! [makes explosion noise]

Ben: Or maybe something with love. Well, Harry has love running through his veins, right?

Eric: Oh yeah. Well the fact that - that's a good point, Ben, because Harry's so receptive of love. Harry's blood should act like acid in Voldemort's veins, but it didn't so far, so I don't know.

Ben: I don't know. The way it's set up, it seems like Harry's just going to say "I love you," to Voldemort and he's going to...

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: He's going to collapse. "Nooo, I cannot be loved!" [laughs]

Andrew: [laughs] Wouldn't that be weird, though? If like, if he like...

Ben: Sent him a valentine?

Andrew: No, not just that, but he found a way to give Vol - this is going to sound weird. It's - found a way to give Voldemort love and that just, that just killed him. [laughs]

Eric: [sings] Give me some lovin'.

Ben: Eric's right. [laughs] Fanfic writers everywhere do rejoice. [laughs]

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: Oh, yeah. [laughs]

Death Eaters and Harry the Martyr?

Ben: Oh, something else I think we need to talk about is do you think, if Voldemort gets killed, okay? By Harry. Would that make him a martyr of his people?

Eric: In the Death Eaters' eyes maybe.

Kevin: Yeah.

Ben: A martyr...

Kevin: Yeah, but...

Eric: Ohhh.

Ben: Would they rally around it?

Kevin: No, I don't think so. I think... I think he's... And he's holding them together.

Eric: Nobody's as cruel and as evil at this point. They're just followers.

Kevin: I mean, without him they're nothing. So, once...

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, they're just followers. There's no leaders.

Kevin: Right, so once he gets knocked off, they're going to fall apart.

Eric: Yeah. Yeah, Kevin's right. I mean, people like Bellatrix, whereas they might posses some leadership skills, they're not currently in themselves powerful enough to get away from the ministry and any powerful witch or wizard actually. Voldemort was the big lapse jump in power, just as Dumbledore was for the good people and...

Andrew: But the good people are still able to manage. The Death Eaters, I really think, Harry's going to have to live with that. Once he kills Voldemort, he's going to have to always have that breathing down his back. The fact that the Death Eaters could possibly regroup and kill him. You think...

Eric: Well, that's why - that's why he wanted to be an Auror. So that he could continue fighting dark wizards because that's kind of his thing. I mean, he obviously had to see himself doing that after Voldemort, it oppose of Voldemort's situation, because otherwise he wouldn't be going after Death Eaters, he'd be going after Voldemort, the big cheese, himself.

Andrew: Do you think that would change his mind on becoming one? Like, say, once he kills Voldemort, he's really going to want to - I think we talked about this on the show already.

Ben: I think he's going to write a book, and then...

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: [laughs] Write a book and then...

Andrew: Harry Potter's What Will Happen in the Future...

Eric: What Has Happened in the First... [laughs]

[Andrew and Ben laugh]

Eric: Who lived, Who died...

Andrew: Harry Potter: A Memoir It'll be on Oprah's book club. It'll be huge.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: Yeah, I personally think the Death Eaters could regroup and attempt to kill Harry, attempt to kill close - close friends of Harry's...

Ben: Thing is, they fell apart last time, though.

Andrew: ...just to get him back.

Ben: They fell apart the time before.

Eric: They did. The time before they fell apart. Some of them were in jail, some of them were like, "Oh, I was cursed."

Andrew: Well, that's the thing...

Eric: Very few of them managed. Well, Lucius Malfoy. Very few managed to actually keep any strands of any social life at all. And the thing is, too, if you were to look at...

Andrew: Even Draco. I mean, Draco's...

Eric: Oh yeah. Well, Draco.

Andrew: his own group of mini Death Eaters with Crabbe and Goyle. [laughs] So...

Eric: It's true.

Andrew: Well...

Eric: It's true. If they really - if they really were determined enough, but I think that's the - that's the mindset of the follower. The Death Eaters are followers, they're not leaders, as I just said. Now, that's what the Nazi - that's where the Nazism comes in because you've got to understand, Voldemort begrudged these people. He uses fear to control them into getting them to be Death Eaters. So, he might say...

Andrew: Draco could, too.

Eric: Yeah, yeah. So this person might hate Muggles for no reason. I mean, Voldemort's just directing all their anger and fears. There's nothing genuine about their anger and fears. I mean, there might be a little bit, but not enough to actually make them. Like Voldemort's the evil one. Nobody else is that genuinely evil except maybe Bellatrix because she's crazy. But like, so, I don't think they'd stay together enough to form some kind of faction that would be anything worthwhile to give anybody and trouble, because none of them are Voldemort.

Micah: But who's to say these people...

Eric: ...or anything close.

Micah: ...aren't going to die themselves?

Andrew: That's true. I think a few of them will die in the book.

Eric: Oh what? Death Eaters or bigwigs?

Micah: Everyone's always talking about, "Oh, this character..."

Andrew: Oh, the bigwigs, too.

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Say the - like if, say Bellatrix dies, say - who else? Say Pettigrew dies, not that he would be able to recruit...

Micah: Lucius is going down.

Andrew: Yeah, and Draco. Hopefully at the same time. Okay, well, should we... So, I mean, did this stem from "Does Voldemort deserve to die?"

Ben: Yeah.

Andrew: Okay. Should we make that the poll on the site this week?

Ben: Itís already on MuggleNet, I think.

Andrew: Is it? Oh. Well, letís look at the results. Currently on MuggleNet, 48% of the people answering the question should Voldemort die respond, ďYes, because to him, there is nothing worse than death.Ē 20% say, ďNo, because Dumbledore says there ARE worse things than death, make him clean toilets as a Muggle janitor!Ē

[Kevin laughs]

Andrew: [laughs] Oh, Emerson! And then 31% say, ďI donít know, but whatever happens to him, heíd better be miserable!Ē

Eric: Thatís where the Muggle janitor thing came in.

Andrew: Interesting. So, vote on the poll, and if these results are very skewed next week, weíll know it was because of our discussion.

Rowling's Quotes About Book 7: Umbridge

Andrew: [clears throat] Moving along now, last week, we talked about some things that J.K. Rowling has said concerning the seventh book, and now, we have a few more for everyone. We are going to start off with one that was in the Emerson and Melissa interview back from July of 2005. Melissa asked Jo, ďAre we going to see more of Umbridge?Ē And Jo nods. Oh, Jo nods, and then Melissa says, ďYou say that with an evil nod.Ē And Jo says, ďYeah, itís just too much fun to torture her not to have another little bit more before I finish.Ē So, what do you guys think could happen in Book 7 with Umbridge? Maybe sheís going to perhaps try to get involved or get in the way of what Harryís trying to do again, and Harryís just going to completely cast some nasty spell on her? Any ideas?

Micah: I donít think sheíll try and hinder Harry, especially because the Ministry has sort of changed their view towards him.

Eric: Theyíve had to because sheís been...

Micah: At least in Half-Blood Prince.

Eric: I think the Ministry changes their view...

Micah: Yeah, but...

Eric: know, not Umbridge.

Micah: Jo says she wants to have a little bit more fun torturing her. So, does that mean that Umbridge is going to try to do some things?

Andrew: Thatís what I was...

Micah: ... but not be successful?

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: And end up in the Forest again?

[Kevin laughs]

Andrew: Thatís maybe not so much the Forest, but I was thinking that maybe she would just try to intervene because what else is going to get her tortured? [laughs]

Micah: Yeah.

Andrew: Because she says not to have a little...

Eric: Well, I would like to see Umbridge held accountable for sending the Death Eaters in the first place, because that was just a mean bit of nastiness.

Micah: Dementors.

Eric: Not - what did I say?

Micah: Not Death Eaters.

Eric: Oh, dementors. Iím - slipping with the Ds. I apologize.

Micah: Yeah. Why didnít she get in trouble for that? Thatís a pretty big deal.

Eric: Nobody knows. The only people who knew were in that room when she admitted to that, and theyíre all students, and nobody would - did...

Andrew: The Ministry was probably trying to hide it.

Eric: Did... Yeah. And Harry probably wouldnít have said that in his interview, either, with Rita about how it was Umbridge who sent the dementors. So, I guess nobody knows, but I would like to see her held accountable for that, because that was just absolutely insane. Who holds a grudge that much? I mean sheís like, ďAll the other Ministry people were doing nothing about it, but I did something!Ē So, she acted of her own accord, and she was just going crazy. I donít think itís unlikely sheíll get herself in trouble again.

Micah: Could she be evil, though?

Kevin: I donít see her joining the...

Micah: Could she join the Death Eaters?

Kevin: ... Death Eaters, myself. I think sheís too full of herself to...

Eric: Yeah. Sheís just...

Kevin: Yeah.

Eric: Little bit of a dictator-type thing.

Rowling's Quotes About Book 7: Romantic

Andrew: Another part of the J.K. Rowling interview, Jo says, ďThereís a theory. This applies to detective novels and Harry, which is not really a detective novel, but it feels like one at times, that you should not have romantic intrigue in a detective book. Dorothy L. Sayres, who is the queen of the genre said, and then broke her own rule, when she said that there is no place for romance in a detective story except that it can be useful to camouflage other peopleís motives. Thatís true. It is a very useful trick. Iíve used that on Percy, and Iíve used that to a degree on Tonks in this book as a red herring. But having said that, I disagree inasmuch as mine are very character-driven books, and itís so important, therefore, that we see these characters fall in love, which is a necessary part of life.Ē So, Micah, what do you make of this?

Micah: That Harry Potter isnít James Bond, so we donít have to worry about some woman whoís trying to deceive him? I mean, I think thatís what she was trying to say, and sheís used sort of relationships in the series as she has seen fit. And theyíre not going to play a big part in the seventh book. They were there for Book 6, and it was a part of maturity, I think.

Andrew: Yeah.

Micah: And thatís all Iíve got to say. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, youíre writing about people. You should write about how they interact. It is a character-driven book, what Jo said about - itís important to see these characters fall in love as a necessary part of life and stuff, but yeah, I think Micahís right in thinking that Book 6 was the major hub of it. Everybodyís going to have to celebrate after Voldemort is dead, maybe with Harry, maybe without Harry, you know - whatever, but beyond that. There is Bill and Fleurís wedding, though.

Andrew: I was just going to say, youíre going to have the ultimate romance in Book 7. [laughs]

Eric: Itís true. Itís true, itís true. Youíre going to get people will love, people will fall, people will murder, people will - might be crazy. Youíre right.

Micah: But I think...

Andrew: And whoís going to catch the flower bouquet? You know what Iím saying?

[Micah laughs]

Eric: Didnít you write about that in's What Will Happen in Harry Potter Book 7?

Andrew: No, we donít write about that in...

Eric: Maybe you should write a sequel.

Andrew: ...MuggleNet.comís What Will Happen in Harry Potter Book 7.

Eric: You could do a sequel: Who Will Catch the Bouquet?

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: [laughing] Who Lives, Who Dies, and Who Will Catch the Bouquet?

Ben: Yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Ben! Ben, get on that! I want 25% for the title.

Ben: Yeah, right. Iím all over that. Iím all over that.

Andrew: [laughs and sighs] Oh, thatís good. Thatís good. Any other ideas?

[Eric sighs]

Andrew: Kevin, you got any speculation? How much romance thereís going to be in Book 7?

[Eric sighs again]

Andrew: Does anyone really care?

Micah: No!

Kevin: I donít think itís the main focus of the book. Yeah, itís like move on.

Eric: Next!

Rowling's Quotes About Book 7: Snape, Lily and Love

Andrew: [laughs] All right! Thereís another interview with JKR, and someone asked her, ďOne of our internet correspondents wondered if Snape is going to fall in love.Ē And J.K. Rowling says, ďYeah? Who on earth would want Snape in love with them? This is a very horrible idea.Ē[Andrew audibly cringes] And then, the person who is asking the question responds, ďBut youíve given an important kind of redemptive pattern to Snape.Ē And J.K. Rowling says, ďIt is, isnít it? Thereís so much I wish I could say to you, and I canít, because it would ruin - I promise you: whoever asked that question, can I just say to you that Iím slightly stunned that youíve said that, erm, [Andrew laughs] and youíll find out why Iím so stunned if you read Book 7, and thatís all Iím going to say.Ē That is very interesting to me, and this was back in 1999. Itís all these early quotes that have the most interesting information, if you ask me. So, it leads me to think that she just wasnít as secret - I mean if someone asked her that question now, what would she respond? I donít think she would say, ďLook for it. Youíll find out in Book 7 why you just brought up Snape falling in love, or someone falling in love with Snape.Ē

Eric: Well, the thing is too, there's more to that, here. I think, isn't it? It looks like it's continuous, the following I think we have in the schedule about JKR. Because, she says, in Book 3, "You're absolutely right. You find out a lot about Harry's father. Now, the important thing about Harry's mother-the really, really significant thing-you're going to find out in two parts. You'll find out a lot more about her in Book 5, where you'll find something very significant about her in Book 5. And you'll find something incredibly important about her in Book 7. But, I can't tell you what those things are. I'm sorry, but yes, you will find out more about her because both of them are very important in what Harry ends up having to do." End quote. That worries me. No, I think it blends and it worries me because of the Harry-of the Snape/ Lily love thing--triangle.

Kevin: Why does that worry you?

Eric: Because about it being cannon. There's like, if Snape wasn't-because like, Lily, where on one hand she thought Snape - it makes me uncomfortable because of what we found out about James...

Micah: Yeah, I think they're separate, but that's okay.

Eric: Book 5, to Snape and being very arrogant and worried Harry. Like, all that stuff was there for a reason but we don't know. I just don't know what it means. What can possibly be coming about Lily? That she loved Snape or that she had a relationship or what's...?

Micah: Did we just skip over the Snape thing?

Andrew: No, Eric thought this was a continuation.

Eric: This is about Snape falling in love. The other one was about Snape falling in love.

Micah: Oh, okay.

Eric: So...

Micah: Well, no. I think the other thing that he added that's important was that he was wondering, would you kind of get a redemptive pattern to Snape and then J.K. Rowling says - what did she say? Sorry. She said she was "stunned that he said that and that you find out why in Book 7." Now if she's "stunned" in a way that she couldn't believe he actually said that - that it's the most ridiculous thing she's ever heard?

Eric: No.

Micah: Or, if she's "stunned" because he may actually be right and Snape will be redeemed in Book 7?

Eric: Well, I don't think it was about the redemption, but she did say "slightly stunned" you've said that. But yeah, one of them you're absolutely right. You find out a lot about... I don't know. Who would want Snape in love with them - that's a horrible idea. And then, when he says about the redemptive pattern, she says, "whoever asked that question, I'm slightly stunned. You find out why if you read Book 7." So, it's like, "was Snape in love" is really the question he asked. The redemptive pattern was just what he used to justify if Snape is going to fall in love or if somebody is going to be in love with Snape.

Micah: Well, my thing was, is she "stunned" because he's correct...

Eric: Or stunned because it's absolutely...

Micah: Or, is she "stunned" because she knows that he's evil and there's no way that he could ever have any type of relationship or be redeemed in any way?

Ben: It depends how close he was.

Eric: Yeah, because the misdemeanor in which J.K. answers all of her questions - she doesn't call, she doesn't consider any question to be stupid. She might say, "Yeah, you know, I don't really think that character's kind of really like that" or anything like that. But she wouldn't say, "Oh my God, in love with Snape? Let me go gag! Oh, my gosh." She suggested Snape would be in - you know? Because that would be an insult to the person who asked the question.

Andrew: So, you guys are thinking that in Book 7, it's going to come out that Snape was in love with Lily? Or perhaps visa versa? Because, when I read this, what I immediately assumed was that Snape was going to fall in love in Book 7.

Eric: Who?

Andrew: I don't know. But...

Eric: Maybe with Harry?

Kevin: Oh, okay.

Andrew: Back in 1999, Jo was set on the fact that we were going to find out something about - is - we were going to find out about love involving Snape in Book 7. So, it must be a big part of the plot, right? If you're going to know seven years beforehand this is going to be in Book 7?

Ben: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah.

Andrew: It's not a little fact that you could throw in at a later point, so, with that said, I don't know. It doesn't seem like there is room in Book 7 for Snape to fall in love and it certainly doesn't seem like there's anyone to fall in love with. Ahhh...Umbridge? [laughs]

Micah: I think if he was in love [laughs] previously, it was definitely a one-way thing.

Eric: Awww.

Andrew: You never know, Micah. There's someone out there for everyone. There's plenty of fish in the sea.

Eric: There is someone out there for everyone.

Andrew: You know, Ben, love is really not an easy thing.

Ben: The only baggage you can bring...

Andrew: Yep. [laughs]

Ben: It's all that you can't leave behind.

Micah: But, what about the Lily thing, though? I don't remember ever learning anything about her in Book 5.

Ben: Jo guaranteed it's going to be obvious.

Eric: Well, the only time we saw her in Book 5 was in the past. If I remember correctly, the only time we heard about Lily was in the past when she - when we found out that she really hated James or hated how, hated James picking on Snape.

Micah: Oh, that's true.

Eric: I mean, that's what we really found out.

Micah: So, you're saying the big thing could be that she had a soft spot for him?

Eric: Well, not necessarily a soft spot, but that she didn't like James enough so that Harry was forced to risk going into the fire to ask Lupin and Sirius about it, because she really was very upset with him. I actually have a fan art depiction by a woman named Vee of this, sitting next to me in a frame about Lily coming up to James with this utmost look of revulsion and because of what he just did to Snape. So, I mean that's what we found out about - I mean, that's the only time I remember about Lily in Book 5. In Book 6...

Micah: But how can that... How does that relate to what Harry is going to end up having to do, which is what she...

Eric: Well, I don't know. That's the question, I mean. But she said you find out about Lily in two parts. One in Book 5 and one in Book 7. But, I was under the impression that she also said that we find out about her in Book 6 and everybody was questioning, "Well, was she just good at Potions? I mean, what have we learned in Book 6 either?" This whole Lily thing is amazingly...

Ben: Confusing. [laughs]

Eric: ...subtle. And confusing. It's bad.

Andrew: So, I mean, it could either... Do you think it could involve - it's either going to involve Lily's eyes or Snape.

Eric: And the Lily's eyes thing we don't know what that has to do with it either.

Andrew: Well, that's what I'm saying. So, maybe that could be the big revelation. I think that has more significance than her being in love with Snape, unless...

Eric: Probably true.

Andrew: ...maybe he played a role in Godric's Hollow or something. I don't know.

Ben: Well, Snape... Some people say that's why they're... Snape begged Voldemort to pardon Lily because he was in love with her.

Andrew: Ah, right, right. Didn't someone...

Eric: Right, there is that possibility.

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