Listener Rebuttal: Final Battle at the Graveyard

Andrew: Then we have another email from Mike, 15 of St. Louis. He says:

"Hey, guys. I remember J.K. Rowling saying that we would see the Hogwarts graveyard before the series is over. To me, the US cover seems to be set outside and all of the dark shadows that look like people are also in the shape of gravestones. This leads me to believe that this may be the scene of a battle; final, is my guess since he is wearing the locket. This could make for some interesting happenings since Dumbledore is buried there. Okay, that's all. Keep up the good work."

I don't - it doesn't really look like a graveyard to me.

Kevin: No.

Andrew: Does it to you guys?

Kevin: Not really.

Laura: No, it doesn't look like a graveyard to me - at all.

Mikey: It looks like the Coliseum.

Kevin: That's what everyone...

Mikey: A stadium.

Kevin: Yeah, the Coliseum.

Laura: Yeah, it really does.

Mikey: Not the Coliseum. It actually looks like - someone actually hunted and told me the exact place that it looks like and showed me comparison pictures.

Kevin: Oh, geez.

Mikey: I said, "That's cool." But I don't remember.

[Andrew laughs]

Mikey: But I give props to that person, whoever you were. I don't even remember who it was.

[Keivn laughs]

Mikey: But, yeah. Not the Coliseum, somewhere else.

Micah: Didn't somebody confirm that they weren't graves?

Laura: I don't know.

Mikey: I don't know.

Andrew: Even so...

Micah: I thought I read an e-mail that...

Laura: Something that I find kind of interesting - and this is kind of what Mike was addressing - if the final battle takes place at a graveyard or at Hogwarts or anywhere like that, that would mean that the final showdown would be at Hogwarts, and this is something that I've always been kind of firmly against. Like, I've always thought that it would never happen at Hogwarts, because so much has already happened there, and I feel like if Harry's going on a journey, it's going to end somewhere different then where it began, and I don't think it will be at Hogwarts. Do you guys think it will be? Do you think this is Hogwarts, or what?

Andrew: I think this is through the veil in the Ministry of Magic.

Mikey: That's what I think. I agree with Andrew.

Laura: I think that, too!

Andrew: [laughs] That's what I'm hoping for.

Laura: But somebody pointed out something very interesting, and this really crushed my theory and it made me really upset: the death chamber that the veil's located in is rectangular-shaped, this room is circular.

Andrew: Well, who says this has to be the death chamber?

Laura: But that's where the veil is. [laughs]

Andrew: But what if - it, it could be something...

Laura: What if it turned circular? Like, the other side is circular?

Mikey: What if we're in the locked door?

Laura: Oh, interesting...interesting moment.

Mikey: The love room.

Kevin: Yeah.

Mikey: The love room. What if we're in there, you know?! Guys, who knows?

Andrew: That does not look like a love room.

[Laura laughs]

Mikey: I don't know, man. It's nice and orange. Can you - I can imagine some hearts in there, maybe.

Andrew: That's the sky!

[Kevin laughs]

Mikey: Quiet!

Andrew: See, I mean. Then you can say it is the death chamber, or it is the love room, but there's a sky right above us. That's, like, the biggest clue! Maybe we're over-thinking this.

Laura: It's a window in the sky.

Andrew: It is a window in the sky.

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: And to love, Harry's rhapsodize - ing.

Mikey: I remember another room. Something like the Great Hall, it's magically enhanced to see...

Andrew: No way.

Laura: No!

Mikey: Who knows? Who knows? Oh man!

Laura: What's interesting about this, though, - we were talking about the circle meaning eternity, and if Harry is on the other side of the veil where death is, and that room is circular, it's just kind of a cool connection to eternity.

Andrew: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Mikey: Ahhh.

Andrew: But I don't think it looks circular. I think it looks more oval.

Laura: Oblong.

Mikey: Actually, I found an e-mail for where that was sent to me: someone said it looks like the Istanbul Amphitheatre, and actually, as I'm looking at it...

Andrew: What is that?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Mikey: It's an amphitheatre where we're looking at it like it's a stage. That's why there's curtains and everything. It's round like that, and there's even seating and people sitting there and everything.

Laura: so Harry's going to go from Istanbul to Constantinople, right, Mikey?

Mikey: Why not?

[Andrew and Laura laugh]

Micah: [sarcastically] Oh, Laura. You're so funny.

Andrew: It doesn't look to me, though, that...

Mikey: High five, Laura. I like that joke.

Micah: What do you guys think about it being Hogwarts? I mean, it's not that crazy of an idea. You look around the rubble. It's a stone rubble, there's wood rubble there too, which could be the front door of the school. Is that such a far-fetched idea?

Laura: It's not...

Andrew: Yeah, but look at the coliseum thing. What would that be?

Micah: So maybe that's the remnants of the school?

Andrew: No way!

Mikey: Oooh!

Andrew: No way! I mean, unless this thing is going to be built in the seventh book, I don't think there is any way that this is Hogwarts.

Mikey: Really? There's Hogwarts on the other cover, too.

Andrew: There is, but on the back cover. It's just an exterior shot. I mean, that illustrator could have been thinking, "Hmmm. What could I put on the back cover? Hogwarts would be cool. Moonlit."

[Laura and Kevin laugh]

Andrew: I don't know. That's a stretch, but...

Mikey: I'm sure that's exactly what he was thinking.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: They had to get the right side of Hogwarts. Andrew; Yeah...

Mikey: Because the other side is all rubble. It looks just like the US cover.

Micah: Exactly.

Andrew: Is it just me, or - enough mocking me.

Laura: I just - I just feel like...

Mikey: It's alright, Simsy.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: ... the hunt for the Horcruxes is going to end with the location of the final battle, and it just seems so implausible to me that Harry would go off looking, and he would find the last one at Hogwarts, and then end up having a showdown with Voldemort.

Mikey: Well, the last one's Nagini, so we're going to - he's going to go hunt Voldemort eventually. I don't think the last Horcrux that's not the snake is going to be there. I don't know.

Micah: I'm going to take this completely off-topic now. You know that little ball that Nagini is in? What if Harry catches him in a Pokéball?

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: Oh my god.

Mikey: I choose you, Nagini! That's actually pretty awesome.

Andrew: That's it. There it is.

Mikey: That's it. And then Fawkes is going to come by and eat him.

Micah: [laughs] What?

Laura: You know what someone pointed out? I don't know if you guys talked about this on a future show...

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: ... but somebody pointed out that that little sphere thing looks a lot like the way the prophecy spheres were described in Order of the Phoenix. What if Harry somehow uses prophecies to his advantage to find the remaining Horcruxes? It almost looks like he captured a snake within that.

Mikey: Hmmm.

Andrew: Yeah. Yeah. But like we were saying last week, there's that window.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And its presence makes me think that it's supposed to be offering some sort of clue.

Micah: What if it's outside Harry's window? what if it's the initial prophecy, and Voldemort is sort of depicted as a snake?

Laura: That's interesting.

Micah: No?

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: I like that, Micah. Well thought out.

Micah: Thanks. Almost as good as the Pokéball.

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: I don't know. That Pokéball is just amazing.

What's With Voldemort's Hand?

Andrew: Looking at the US cover again, and maybe you guys have given this some thought, but Voldemort's right hand - if you're holding out your hand like that, you can't physically hold your hand out like that unless your arm is twisted all the way around. So, I'm not saying that's a hint for the book, but see how his thumb is on our right?

Micah: Wrong side? [laughs]

Andrew: Exactly. It's on the wrong side.

Laura: Okay, everybody hold out your arms and see... [laughs]

Andrew: That's what I'm - I'm doing it.

Mikey: That's what I did.

[Kevin sighs]

Andrew: His forehand is facing us.

Laura: So, wait, are his palms facing us, both of them?

Andrew: His palms are facing us. Right.

Laura: Well, no, you can do that.

Mikey: Andrew?

Andrew: If you can twist your arm all the way around.

Laura: I'm not doing...

Mikey: Andrew, Andrew, Andrew. This is what you're going to do. Put your arm out in front of you.

Andrew: Yeah?

Mikey: And point your thumb...

Andrew: Yeah?

Mikey: ... away from you and your thumb and your hand is now turned...

[Laura laughs]

Mikey: ...and the perspective of the reader your thumb is on the other side. And I'm doing it right now. [laughs]

Andrew: I don't think you understand what I'm saying, though.

Mikey: I see what you're saying, man. It's not that difficult to do.

Kevin: No, it isn't.

Andrew: But does anyone hold their hand out like that?

Laura: If you are trying to...

Andrew: My arm is aching holding it like this.

Laura: Well, you would - obviously, he's not holding it like that for a minute. He's reaching... [laughs]

Andrew: Laura, he's been holding it like that for the past two weeks.

[Everyone laughs]

Mikey: He's pushing - he's using wandless magic to push things away.

Micah: I think what Andrew is trying to say is perhaps that this is a reflection.

Andrew: A reflection? No, no.

Micah: Through the veil.

Andrew: Well, yes, Micah, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you, Micah.

Micah: Exactly, see.

[Andrew laughs]

Laura: But if you look at it as if it's a reflection, it would be - you would be holding your arms in the same type of position, just the opposite way, you know what I'm saying?

Micah: No, but it does look weird. It looks weird. If you tried to hold your hand out...

Andrew: Thank you, Micah, thank you.

Micah: ... it doesn't work the same way.

Laura: But here's the thing, though. When I think of this, I think of somebody trying to catch - like, my brother pays soccer and when I hear you guys talking about this, I think about him leaping to the side to catch balls and the way he throws out his arms that way. And obviously, you don't hold out your arms like that forever, but if it's just a quick moment in time captured, of course it's going to look funny.

Kevin: Well, Laura, soccer is typically played with the feet.

[Everyone laughs]

Laura: When you're a goalie it's not, Kevin. [laughs]

Mikey: Well, I like to call it football.

Listener Rebuttal: Hand Position

Andrew: Yeah. To start off that little discussion we have another e-mail: Kathryn T, 16, of New York. She writes:

In Episode 83 you were discussing Harry and Voldemort's hands on the Book 7 cover and someone stated that both Harry and Voldemort seemed to be reaching out towards something. Although I agree that Harry, based on the position of his hand, is grasping for something in the air above him, the position of Voldemort's hand seems to suggest that he is either shielding himself or trying to push something away. It makes sense that Harry would be grasping or reaching for something based on the position of his hand. When you reach for something your hand has a slight curve to it and your thumb goes forward, almost as if you were trying to wrap your hand around whatever you are reaching for, and that is exactly what Harry's hand is doing. Voldemort on the other hand, no pun intended, appears to have his hand more flat than Harry's, although it might just be the angle.

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: I don't think we ever really talked about this. In general.

Laura: It does look like he's...

Andrew: On what is going on here.

Laura: It does look like he's trying to push it away, instead of trying to catch it or trying to keep Harry from catching it.

Micah: Mhm. Yeah, we do talk about it on a future show.

Andrew: What if...

Mikey: Oh. [laughs]

Andrew: Yeah. I think, and I didn't say this on a future show, Voldemort seems to be leaning back.

Mikey: I was going to say, what if they tripped and fell and they're just trying to grab something just to keep themselves from falling?

[Micahlaughs]

Mikey: Because you said that Voldemort looks like he's falling back...

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: ... and he's reaching out to Harry, to try and grab him. I don't know.

Andrew: It's almost symbolic because he's sort of, like, falling behind the curtain.

Mikey: A curtain.

Micah: Well, Andrew.

Andrew: Yeah. Yes.

Micah: After I read this e-mail, I talked to you and I said, "Now, I am 100 percent convinced that Harry is going to die in this final book."

Andrew: I don't remember you saying that, Micah, but go on.

Micah: I really think that that's what going to happen, though. And I know it's terrible, but I am really convinced and now I'm preparing myself for it because then it will be a nice little surprise if he doesn't.

Andrew: Emotionally?

Micah: Yeah, because if you look at what's happening, to me, what it suggests is Harry is welcoming whatever that is, like - let me get her name right.

Laura: Like "Welcome, death?"

Micah: Yeah, exactly. He's not afraid of it, though.

Laura: Yeah.

Micah: And kind of what Kathryn's saying is he's holding it out - his palm wide open and it may not be death - it may be something that resembles death or something that causes death, whereas Voldemort is in a position holding out his hand where, like she said, he's almost shielding himself. So, that suggests to me that this is the final battle and...

Andrew: Well, it's got to be the final battle. Yeah.

Mikey: Well...

Micah: Something's coming for both of them and Voldemort doesn't want any part of it.

Andrew: That's a good point.

Mikey: What if it's love?

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: There's the opposite of that. Love and death, man. It's - Voldemort doesn't like either of them. So, I don't know. Maybe it's Ginny coming after him.

[Mikey and Micah laugh]

Mikey: She's mad. I don't know.

Listener Rebuttal: The Castle IS Hogwarts

Andrew: Well, Micah, you brought up a good point. Voldemort doesn't want any part of it, whatever's going on there. I like that idea. Let's move onto one more e-mail, and then we'll head to voicemails. It comes from Daphne, 20, of Los Angeles. Mikey, you live near Los Angeles, don't you?

Mikey: I do, I live in Orange County.

Andrew:

First, I would like to say that you had a lot of interesting theories about the covers and I enjoy listening very much. The castle on the children's U.K. version, I think, is Hogwarts, because I know it looks sort of curved in places but you need to take into consideration the angle that the picture is being drawn from and then picture it standing from a distance, where you aren't looking up at it but rather straight at it. Also, Harry does look like he's being sucked in along with Ron and Hermione and just like Hermione by his feet.

Daphne is talking about the U.K. children's cover.

The look on his face suggests that maybe he's been taken by surprise and it's not a good surprise and Dobby (assuming it is) is holding onto his shoulder because if he doesn't, then he'll get sucked in first just because he's too small.

Well, whichever house-elf it is - that's an interesting perspective about the Hogwarts castle. Does anyone still think it's not the Hogwarts castle?

Laura: I mean, I guess it is. I guess it just doesn't really look like how...

Andrew: It just looks different.

Laura: ...I imagine Hogwarts. I mean, even if you're standing far away from something - if it's a castle, it's not really going to have circular shapes to it. I mean it's going to have towers, and I mean, we're talking angles, not - I don't know, it just doesn't seem...

Micah: Understand though too that our perception of Hogwarts really comes from the movies.

Andrew: Mmm, yeah.

Micah: You know, just because it doesn't look the way it does in the movies, doesn't mean it's not the castle.

Laura: No, I'm not saying that it's just that, even disregarding the movies, when you think of an ancient castle, you don't think of rounded towers.

Mikey: Ehhh, I don't know - I don't know. [laughs]

Laura: I mean, I guess it's just - I mean, honestly, it's just probably just an artist's perception.

Andrew: Mhm.

Laura: And it probably is Hogwarts, but it just doesn't quite look like the way it's always been described. It doesn't look as old.

Micah: It just looks like it's reflecting in the moonlight, really.

Mikey: Yeah...

Kevin: I think it's hard...

Mikey: There's that cloud coming in and...

Andrew: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah. I think it's hard to tell because of the moonlight. It sort of...

Andrew: Yeah.

Kevin: ...skews the image, so...

Andrew: Yeah, if there wasn't that moonlight on there, what would the color underneath be? Probably the...

Kevin: Exactly.

Andrew: If there was the brown Hogwarts that we've always seen it would probably look more like what we're used to seeing.

Laura: Mmhmm.

Andrew: Right?

Laura: Yeah.

Andrew: And then what else? Yeah, this Daphne also pointed out about Ron, Hermione, and Harry falling into whatever that is there. Mikey and Kevin, you guys have any ideas about that? We discussed it on Episode 83.

Mikey: I don't know...

Kevin: What...

Mikey: ...what did you guys come up with?

Kevin: ...what...

Andrew: Well, I mean, what were we saying? That it could have been a Gringotts vault. You know, it can't be the veil.

Mikey: I like the vault idea.

Andrew: Yeah.

Mikey: I'm going with that.

Andrew: There's just so much treasure.

Kevin: Yeah, me too.

Andrew: It's very interesting. So, I thinkyou guys ready for some voicemails?

Voicemail: Dragon in Gringotts

[Audio]: Hey MuggleCast. This is Cheryl from Santa Clarita, and I was listening to your last podcast and I was just thinking two things on the U.K. edition cover. If you look in the lens of Harry's glasses you can see something. It looks like it's spewing flames, like it's a dragon, and could they be in Gringotts? So, just wanted to know what you thought.

Andrew: I don't get it. Why would that confirm...?

Laura: Because, what was - I forget his name, was Griphook the goblin, I believe, told Harry in the first book, or Hagrid did, that dragons guarded Gringotts.

Andrew: Oh! So - oh!

Kevin: Oh.

Andrew: That's interesting. Yeah because...

Kevin: That is interesting.

Andrew: ...we were wondering what the - what on earth was in the reflection on Harry's glasses, last week. Hmmm.

Laura: So, I mean - maybe their actually falling towards a dragon, or maybe their trying to escape one and, I mean...

Andrew: Hmmm...

Laura: I mean, does this mean that Voldemort like has a Horcrux locked up in a vault there? That would be kind of cheesy.

Andrew: Yeah, well we were talking about...

Kevin: On a future episode we...

Andrew: Yeah. [laughs]

[Everyone laughs]

Andrew: All right...

Laura: I'm not liking this future episode stuff.

Andrew: Yeah, no. Yeah, I know, I know. We do talk about...

Kevin: Oh, the possibility that Voldemort put - had an item of consequence like...

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Kevin: ...that he put in a vault, that he created - he used to make a Horcrux.

Andrew: Yeah, we were asking why he would do that. But...

Kevin: Which is why some - in this future episode...

Andrew: Yeah.

Kevin: [laughs] ...we were considering that that house-elf may not be a house elf and may be one of the Gringotts Goblins.

Andrew: Right.

Laura: Yeah

Andrew: More on the future episode.

Kevin: Yes.

Andrew: Next voicemail.

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