Possibility of Fake Horcruxes

Laura: ...but finding various things that Tom Riddle had owned that aren't Horcruxes but that lead him to one. Kind of along the lines of the locket.

Eric: Voldemort's got a secret stash.

Laura: Of fake Horcruxes?

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: No.

Jamie: He's got...

Laura: He just throws them out at will?

Jamie: Can I make a parallel?

Eric: Well, I don't know.

Laura: Yeah, go ahead, Jamie.

Jamie: There was a film called Under Siege 2 which starred Steven Seagal.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: And basically what happened was they put this - no, seriously. This is serious. They put this satellite into orbit and this satellite could blast any location on Earth with like a power of...

Eric: Like GoldenEye?

Jamie: Like GoldenEye. Exactly, just like GoldenEye. And, basically what happened was the U.S. military wanted to destroy this satellite. So, the mastermind who took over this satellite and made it evil to blast all these things created a number of, sort of, like fake satellites. And then the military had, like, 50 to choose from. In the end they got the wrong one, but then it all worked out because in Steven Seagal films he has to be the, you know, the cool hero who kicks everyone's thing. So...

Eric: Yeah.

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: But yeah, that could be like it. Voldemort creates bad, like, fake Horcruxes. Because, I mean, I'd do that if I wanted to make people, you know, look forever for the real thing. Maybe.

Eric: Yeah.

Laura: Throw them off the scent, yeah.

Eric: Well, and the other thing, though, is that Voldemort is blinded by his arrogance. In suggesting or even thinking that somebody would be able to find out his secret of his Horcruxes. Yes, they might be highly guarded. But also, I don't know if he'd go so far as to create fake ones if somebody were to - I think he'd have more pride and more time to conquer the world than keep creating, you know, an obscene amount of false Horcruxes. I mean, if Dumbledore had difficulty finding one or them, I think Voldemort is kind of right in his false security of being safe with his secret. But obviously somebody like R.A.B. could have easily come and found him out. So, you know, I don't think there is a lot of decoy Horcruxes as it were, but, you know?

Jamie: Yeah.

Eric: For exactly that reason.

Laura: Good point, Eric.

Eric: Thank you. And I just wanted to, you know. Jamie went all out here with Under Siege 2: Dark Territory. Which was released the 14th of July...

Jamie: It is Dark Territory. Very good. Eric; Yes. The 14th of July, 1995.

[Kevin laughs]

Jamie: Eric, you aren't using IMDB, are you? That excellent site...

Eric: I am using IMDB.

Jamie: ...for finding information?

Eric: At the top-right of the page I can't help but notice this lovely advertisement for Amazon.com.

Kevin: Oh, yeah.

Eric: But, at any rate. Director - directed by Geoff Murphy. And the writers are J.F. Lawton and Richard Hatem.

Jamie: Awesome.

Laura: Okay.

Jamie: Awesome.

Laura: Unless anyone else has anything to say about these rebuttals, I think it's about time we move into our main discussion. So are you guys ready?

Jamie: Yep.

Main Discussion: Gringotts in Book 7

Laura: Okay, with all of the feedback that we've gotten about Gringotts, I thought that it would be good to talk about what role Gringotts could play in Deathly Hallows. Now, I was looking through Sorcerer's Stone, and I noticed that the description of Gringotts kind of fit the description that we see on the cover. It's described as having "narrow stone passageways with flaming torches. It slopes steeply downward and there are little railway tracks on the floor. Twisting passages." Harry also saw "a burst of fire at the end of the passage," which would support the theory that they're actually facing a dragon...

Jamie: Yeah.

Laura: ...in that one image. Also, Harry passed "an underground lake where huge stalactites and stalagmites grew from the ceiling and the floor." So, we know that Gringotts isn't just a bank. It's actually kind of an - I mean, it's actually got an underground lake, and...

Eric: There are catacombs.

Laura: ...it's got ravines, and...

Jamie: Yeah.

Kevin: Yeah.

Laura: Yeah. It's not just a building. And that's what I find interesting about it.

Jamie: Well, the thing I always thought, the main point I always thought about Gringotts and the thing that we should to always include and stress, is that it's not under the control of the good side, and it never has been. And like, even though Dumbledore uses one of the vaults to store the Philosopher's Stone, that doesn't mean that he has control over everything. It's just a high security vault that he happens to own or loan. And I think that it's, you know, it's important to point out that both sides can use Gringotts if they want to. It just seems like a kind of neutral player in the whole war, you know?

Laura: Yeah, it really does.

Jamie: Don't kill us and we won't side with the other side. So, I think it could be immensely important in the, you know, seventh book, just because of that.

Goblins

Laura: Yeah, the impression that I've gotten of the goblins is that they don't really care one way or the other as long as they're not affected.

Jamie: Exactly, yeah.

Eric: Hmmm. I don't think it is so much that, though.

Jamie: And as long as they survive and as long as they, you know, get their gifts.

Eric: Well, yeah. They do want to survive, but they aren't necessarily the people who are going to say, "Just don't hurt us and we'll go along with you." I think they're also -There's a bit of greed and there's a bit of loyalty among goblins. I mean, they've rebelled how many times throughout history that we hear of. So they aren't exactly...

Jamie: That's true.

Eric: ...non-active members when wars and things are breaking out. They do participate in wars. So, I think they are not as much, you know, importantly neutral as they are appearing to be now. I think it's just a matter of greed and power. I think they have ties to both the good and the dark side. And, let's face it. I mean, both the good and bad people can have the same bank. So, money's kind of, money kind of - you know, there's charity and there's obviously blood money, you know?

Kevin: Well, I wouldn't say necessarily that they have ties to the good or bad side. I think they are neutral to who they serve. So, whether you're good and bad they are going to give you a bank account. Because they...

Eric: Right, but they aren't necessarily going to stay out of war, either.

[Jamie laughs]

Kevin: I'm not sure about that, because...

Laura: [laughs] I think the only way they involved in a war was if they – if it directly impacted the goblins.

Jamie: I agree, yeah.

Laura: If they don't have any reason to be involved, I don't think they will be.

Kevin: And if you remember, this has already happened before. So, the fact that they weren't – they didn't mention punishing them or, you know, putting any restrictions on them, it means that they weren't a problem before. Why would they be a problem now?

Laura: Yeah. I mean, you hear about how giants played a big part in the first war, but you never hear anything about goblins.

Kevin: Right, and that's not to say that there's not one goblin that's corrupt, but that goes for anyone.

Micah: Well, I think that they have a lot of pride in what they do, and I think if that pride was threatened, whether it was from one side or the other, then that may cause them to act. And I liked what Jamie was saying before about how we've seen it play such a big role in the first book, and we saw that it's not completely safe either, because that vault was broken into by Voldemort, so – or Quirrelmort, whatever you want to call him. It's a very good chance that, you know, they're not playing one side or the other because I think they would have reacted a lot differently if, for instance, they were on the good side completely.

Kevin: Yeah.

Micah: You know what I mean?

Kevin: Yeah, that's true. But can't they just be neutral? There's those people who decide to stand out and, you know?

Laura: I mean, I've just always kind of gotten the impression of the goblins that, save someone from the good side, did something bad to a goblin, they're not going to go join Voldemort's ranks just because someone from the good side did something to them. They're going to go after that one person.

Jamie: They are, but – I don't know, I mean, I don't want to sort of insult these creatures, but it just seems that if I were a dementor...

Micah: You shouldn't insult them.

Jamie: No, no, no.

Micah: They might come after you in your sleep.

Jamie: They might do, Micah. Don't – don't – you know, you read these chain letters, and it's like, "I am six years old. I have no eyes. If you don't forward this to 100..."

Laura: [laughs] Oh yeah, I saw that one.

Jamie: "...million people in the next two seconds, I'll come to your bed tonight and kill you."

Laura: I got that one once.

Jamie: So then they might come after you, Micah.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: So don't – so don't push your luck. No, no.

Kevin: Oh, god.

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: The way I see it is that it seems that these kind of creatures – now, I don't want to sort of generalize over goblins – but dementors – it seems that they are ideally suited to be on Voldemort's side. He'll give them what they want, which is a feast of souls, and it just seems like - I don't know if it's just me, but it seems that they would be better served by going with Voldemort. I'm sure whatever they want, he could provide for them, whereas Dumbledore will say...

Kevin: Yeah, but is it...

Jamie: "Is it good? If it's good, I'll give it to you. If it's not good, then you can 'Go Fish.'"

Kevin: Yeah, but that's why I'm saying I don't think it's about good or bad with them.

Laura: Yeah.

Kevin: I think it's about money.

Jamie: What they want. Exactly, it is, yeah. I agree.

Kevin: And so they're completely neutral, so long as they get money.

Jamie: Exactly, yeah.

Kevin: They could care less if it's, you know, Voldemort's vault or Harry Potter's.

Laura: You know what, though? I'm not...

Kevin: It doesn't matter, so long as money's going in it.

Laura: I'm not sure I – I mean, whenever I consider the goblins, I think of a very proud culture, and...

Eric: Yeah, they are.

Laura: . . .a group of people or a group of creatures that would not take kindly to being seen as a group that would need an outside influence to give them what they wanted. I think they're very self-sufficient and they want to earn what they can get for themselves, not have someone give it to them.

Eric: Yeah, it's – that's the other thing, too, and it's great for Laura to point that out because if you think about it, despite the fact that they just want money, they are a proud people, or a proud group of creatures, or – they're a proud group. And if you recall things throughout the Harry Potter books, for instance, Barty Crouch, was it? Who gave them false leprechaun gold to pay back some of his debts? I mean, things like that earn Ministry officials, if anything, if not just humans, very bad reps and very – you know, if somebody's unreliable. I think Voldemort – if he can not just give them business but show that he is, in some ways, more true to his word, at least, that that might be respectable. Because, I mean, we're coming down to the seventh book where we have to understand where the Ministry has screwed up in terms of being effective or not effective and treating other people as they should be treated.

Laura: Mhm. I've always wondered...

Eric: You know? So, I mean, yeah.

Laura: Sorry, Eric. I didn't mean to cut you off, but I've always wondered what exactly is so frightening about goblins, because you were talking about Barty Crouch Jr., and I specifically...

Eric: No, no, Sr.

Laura: Oh, Sr., excuse me – and I specifically remember him being very nervous around the goblins, like – generally, if you give someone fake money and you're not afraid of them, you're not going to be trying to avoid them.

[Jamie coughs]

Laura: But he was clearly trying to avoid them and he seemed very nervous and I just wonder what, exactly, the goblins can do.

Eric: Well, Laura, they have a cave with a dragon and a lake and stalactites and stalagmites. They can...

Laura: Well, are they going to drag him down there and feed him to the dragon?

Eric: They can put him underground and tie him to a stalagmite. I'm dead serious. That's the kind of stuff that happens in this world.

[Kevin laughs]

Laura: Yeah, but do they have the kind of powers that house elves have? Because we know that house elves –

Jamie: I think they're more powerful.

Laura: We've never really seen a goblin exhibit power.

Eric: Well, take a look at the vault, then – the special vault, 713 - Dumbledore's vault, by the way, which the Sorcerer's Stone was kept in. I think it was at least – no, it was in the book - if anybody but a goblin tried to open the door this way, they would be sucked into the door and kept there forever, you know, "until we check it." And Harry says...

Jamie: Ten years. Ten years.

Eric: Ten years – well, no, he said, "until we check it."

Jamie: Roughly 10 years.

Eric: He says, "How often do you check it?" And he says, "Once every ten years," so they've got some kind of power.

Jamie: Right, so 10 years.

Eric: It'd be a horrible lifestyle, kind of sucked into a door, but I wonder if you age.

[Jamie and Laura laugh]

Jamie: I think it would be quite like...

Eric: I'd rather see Jumanji, when he gets sucked into the board game and lives in the jungle for...

Jamie: Well, I'd rather seeJumanji - no, no, no, Eric, in Jumanji, that hunter...

Eric: Van Pelt?

Jamie: ...Van Pelt, yeah? He could have beaten him easily. That gun that he was using - if he'd just thrown a barrel of water on them, it was so old, it would have jammed or something. He would have taken him down easily. It was so annoying watching him. He was like, "Van Pelt!"

Eric: Well, actually, the same guy who played the hunter Van Pelt also played Robin Williams' father as a child, did you know?

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: Yeah, the actor, Jonathan Hyde.

Jamie: Oh, awesome. Really?

Eric: That's Jumanji, which premiered the 15th of December, 1995. Thanks to the IMDB for that as well.

[Jamie laughs]

Griphook's Quote

Laura: You know, Eric, it was kind of interesting that you brought up the whole quote...

Jamie: That's pretty awesome.

Laura: ...where Griphook said, "If anyone but a Gringotts goblin tried that, they'd be sucked through the door and trapped in there." I think that's interesting because if you look at the U.K. children's edition cover, we've been talking about how it looks like they're being dragged in somewhere. What if they're being sucked into a vault?

Eric: Oh, wow. That'd be funny!

[Laura and Jamie laugh]

Eric: "We touched the door! We shouldn't have touched the door! [moaning] Noooo."

Jamie: That'd be interesting.

Eric: "Let us hope that in this..."

Jamie: You'd think that Harry would be cleverer than that, though.

Eric: Yeah, you really would.

Laura: You would, but now I can just see it. Like, we have - halfway through the book, we have ten years later, when the goblins finally come to check the vault.

Eric: Oh my gosh, actually, you know what? That's more clever than I thought. In Episode 83, didn't we talk about how it looked like a vault or an archway? Or something obviously...

Laura: Yeah.

Eric: ...with treasure, so it makes sense that it's a Gringotts vault, but maybe they were being sucked out of it. Or being sucked into the door, which would really suck for the ending of the series, but...

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: How, how would – I think a Muggle would fare better in there than a wizard, because...

[Laura laughs]

Jamie: ...basically, we have cell phones, you know?

Laura: Yeah. Yeah, but do you...

Jamie: They've got nothing.

Laura: Would you get a cell signal in – at Gringotts?

Jamie: Although I doubt you get much reception down there, yeah.

Eric: Yeah, underneath London, but it all depends on how overloaded London is will cell phones, how deeply the...

Jamie: No, no, no, they have - yeah, that's true. No, but – yeah, but Gringotts must install a Vodafone mast inside the building just so people can't get a signal down in the vault, because it would be a bit unfair if you couldn't.

Eric: Jamie, you have Vodafone.

Jamie: I think. Or there's WiFi – free WiFi down in the vaults. I think that's it.

Eric: Free WiFi, so when you're down there, you can surf and...

Whose Vault Is It?

Laura: If they are being sucked into a vault, whose do you think it is? I was thinking maybe Hepzibah Smith...

Jamie: It has to be one of the special ones, though.

Laura: ...because we were talking about how...

Micah: Yeah, I agree with that.

Laura: ...she had a lot of treasure...

Jamie: She has a lot of treasure, yeah.

Laura: ...plus the goblin-made armor. I mean, it could very well be hers. What if they go there looking for something that they thought Riddle might have used or wanted to use?

Eric: You know what I just thought?

Jamie: That's true.

Eric: A brilliant thought just occurred to me. If they were to take an image – well, you tell me if it's a brilliant thought, anyway. If they were to take a photograph of somebody, say, who has another photograph, for instance, with them in their pockets, such as wallet photographs, for instance. You know, if they move, etcetera. If they were able to get sucked into a door, couldn't they then use that portrait to either travel themselves to the other person's portrait, which would be outside of the door of the vault, or tell the other person inside to transfer to their portrait and get some serious help?

Laura: I guess it all depends on if you actually carry around a portrait, because I've never heard of having a wallet-sized picture that was a portrait.

Eric: It's true. Well, photographs move, but we don't know if photographs are separate from portraits in that they can move and visit their other subjects that are...

Laura: Well, they can leave, but the only personality we've seen has been from portraits.

Eric: Well, I don't want to talk about whether or not they're imprints of personalities or not, but they can transfer between portraits.

Laura: Yeah, they can.

Eric: I mean, that happens all the time in the books.

Laura: Yeah, but I mean...

Eric: And they can also visit their other selves such as the old headmaster who was at Grimmauld Place who was Sirius' great-great-grandfather. What's his name, please?

Laura: Phineas Nigellus.

Eric: Thank you, okay.

Laura: You're welcome.

Jamie: Oh, go you, Laura.

Eric: Anyway, he went between his own potrait...

Laura: That's like remembering your birthday, Jamie.

Eric: Yeah, well. Yeah, that's freaking crazy. So, Kevin, are you April seventeenth, then? That's pretty cool.

Kevin: Yes, I am.

Eric: I'm April 23rd. Shakespeare's birthday, by the way.

Laura: Yeah, happy early birthday, you guys. Side note. [laughs]

Jamie: No, Eric, Eric. Shakespeare was born on your birthday. Come on.

[Laura and Kevin laugh]

Laura: Do you think, though? I mean, just talking about what Eric was saying about trying to get help. Do you think that even if you somehow manage to alert a friend or someone in your family, could they get you out? Would the goblins even let you out?

Kevin: I'm sure they would.

Laura: Do you think so, though? Because they're the only one who can do it.

Jamie: They must do. Think of the claim if they didn't let you out. You could sue them for so much money.

Laura: But how could you even prove that someone was locked in there?

Jamie: Well, you'd say, "Go and open it. And if there isn't someone in there, I'll give you some money."

Laura: But they say they only check it every 10 years.

[Micah and Laura laugh]

Jamie: No, no, but they only check it every ten years if no one says anything. I think that's just a random check. Every 10 years, they'll check it to see if anyone's in there, but if someone comes down and says, "Look, my son's gone in there, okay? And I haven't seen him for a few years..."

[Everyone laughs]

Jamie: "...so could you just go and look and see if he's in there," I think they'll go and check, to be honest. I don't know.

Micah: I just have a hard time believing that it's a vault.

Laura: I think they might be reluctant.

Micah: Like, the problem with it is because of the sky that's behind. It looks like the same sky, we said it one million times, that's on the U.S. cover.

Laura: Yeah, it does. It definitely does. I mean, it could be the color of the inside of the vault. I know that whenever they opened Harry's vault, green smoke came out, so what if we have various different colors of smoke that come out of the vaults when you open them?

Jamie: That's interesting.

Laura: Maybe?

Micah: Yeah.

Jamie: That's interesting, yeah.

Micah: Going back to what you said before, though, about whose vault might it be? I mean, there's a couple of different things that look like cups that are in that treasure there, including one that's right above the helmet, if you look sort of right above the helmet on the right-hand side. So maybe that's her cup.

Eric: Well, cups are a very important thing.

Micah: Maybe he's going for a Horcrux.

Eric: If you're going to make something useful out of gold, why shouldn't it be a goblet, you know?

Micah: My point is the Horcrux that's supposed to be Hufflepuff's cup.

Eric: But it actually could also be a grail reference, of course, to Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, per se, where at the end...

Micah: Yeah. I mean, they're riding around Gringotts on those little carts.

Eric: ...he has to choose wisely.

[Laura and Jamie laugh]

Jamie: Yeah, yeah, that's what they say.

Laura: It could also be a reference to all of the Arthurian legend we've been talking about, Micah.

Jamie: Yeah.

Micah: That's very true. That's very true.

Eric: Possibly. So, I don't know.

Laura: But you think that's a bit more likely, right, Eric?

Eric: Well, no.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade was about the Arthurian legend and Saint – what was it, Peter or Christopher, who stayed behind and guarded the grail?

Jamie: Who are you talking about?

[Laura laughs]

Eric: I don't know. But the guy who guarded the grail, and so he chose...

Jamie: In what? In what?

Eric: ... poorly.

Jamie: Oh, that knight. That's got to be the suckiest job ever. Oh my god.

[Everyone laughs]

Eric: But he had immortality and he had faith, so Jamie, don't mock.

Jamie: Eric, Eric, it doesn't matter if you have immortality and faith. When you're stuck in a room for 3,000 years with a load of cups, seriously, there's no worse life ever.

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