Listener Rebuttal: The Symbol and Spelling Out Voldemort's Name

Andrew: Well, actually speaking of shapes, we got another email from Chrissy, 15, of Tabernacle, New Jersey. I know, I know. It's from New Jersey.

Eric: That's a cool name.

Andrew: Chrissy?

Eric: Tabernacle.

Andrew: Oh, Tabernacle. That's actually a nearby town to me. Close to me.

Eric: Well it's a holy name, but...

Andrew: Okay, yes, you're right, actually. This is a long email; I'll try to get through it quick.

I really enjoyed your discussion of the symbol on the cover of 'Deathly Hallows,' but while listening I came up with a theory that you didn't mention. I thought that because this book is probably mostly about Voldemort's Horcruxes, maybe the symbol has to do with Voldemort. I know that he already has the Dark Mark but that has more to do with his Death Eaters. And if you wanted to make a Horcrux of some kind the Dark Mark would be far too obvious. The triangle and the split circle could very easily represent Voldemort. You were talking about the points of the triangles representing three things. So I thought what values does Voldemort most care about? Power, fame, and wealth. This seems to be all he wants out of life and the triangle could represent these things. The split circle could be eternal life and that has been what Voldemort has been looking for all along, right? The split in the circle could represent that fact that Voldemort lives divided lives; he is both Tom Riddle and Voldemort. Or the fact that he split his soul when he created the Horcruxes.

Interesting point. She goes on to say,

And I know this is going to sound crazy but you can create every letter in Voldemort from this symbol, that's on the spine. If you don't believe me then look at this picture.

She attached a photo that we'll put on the site if you guys want to take a look at this, go ahead. It's kind of clever; basically, every letter of Voldemort's name could somehow fit in the triangle. So...

[Eric laughs]

Andrew: ...take a look at that.

Eric: That's pretty sweet.

Andrew: It's actually kind of interesting because they all seem to fit pretty well, except for the "R." You can't really make a – you can make a lower-case R out of the word Voldemort.

Eric: Ohhh. Oh, yeah.

Ben: And the sideways "E," that doesn't look...

Andrew: Yeah. But I mean...

Eric: Well, no, I thought it was very clever.

Andrew: It is. It's a good idea. Because I mean, yeah, you couldn't do the letter "H," you couldn't do it with the letter, like, "Q" or the letter "B" - well, you might be able to do it with "B." But as follow...

Ben: I think it just spells – I think it just spells "Ooooooo," like...

[Everyone laughs]

Ben: With all the circles, I think it just spells "Ooooooo." [laughs]

Micah: I don't really know about the whole power, fame, and wealth aspect of it, because - power I can definitely see, fame sort of, but wealth? I don't really think he's out to achieve wealth.

Eric: No, no, that's what flawed.

Micah: Or that in any way...

Eric: Just a...

Micah: ... represents him.

Eric: Specifically naming three things is a little bit different from saying it's still Voldemort's symbol. Like, that might be power, fear, and infamy, you know. I mean, it could be anything.

Micah: Right. No, I know, I mean she was probably just throwing out a couple of things that...

Eric: Ideas.

Micah: ...they could represent. Yeah, but the wealth one I'm not too big on.

Eric: The wealth one not so much.

Andrew: I guess, but I like the idea that the triangle is split, so split lives, split ideas.

Eric: Split lives.

Andrew: You know...

Ben: But I don't think Voldemort...

Andrew: ...split Horcruxes.

Ben: ...leads two lives though. I think if that symbolized anybody it'd be Snape.

Andrew: Oh, oh, yeah.

Ben: Split lives, wouldn't that be Snape?

Eric: That's true.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: Because Voldemort - Tom Riddle he's not – he does not consider himself to be Tom Riddle any longer. The only person who calls him that...

Eric: No, no, no.

Ben: ...is Dumbledore. So...

Eric: He's more machine now than man. Jamie would so pat me on the back for that one.

Main Discussion: Lily's Secret

Andrew: All right, so this week, we're going to have a main discussion on Lily's secret. We haven't really discussed this much in detail and Laura or Micah, I think you guys got the idea for this discussion from an e-mail?

Micah: The e-mail that we got came from Alexander Miller, 15, from Pennsylvania, and he said that he:

"...was inspecting Jo's website and found one of the easier unlockable accomplishments, a few pages that were cut from 'The Sorcerer's Stone.' And in these pages the reader finds that originally the Sorcerer's Stone was found in Lily and James' vault at Gringotts, not vault seven hundred something."

Andrew: Thirteen. [laughs]

Micah: Yeah. [laughs]

[Ben laughs]

Micah: "This cut information, plus her skill in potion making caused me to think that maybe Lily was an alchemist. I want to know what you guys think, your show is awesome. Pickles."

Lily The Alchemist?

Laura: I think it's definitely possible because of how good she was at potions, and you would have to be good at potions to be a good alchemist. Because the two kind of go hand in hand, you know?

Micah: And I could be completely wrong here - I don't know alchemy at all, but I remember a couple of theories that came in originally was that, that there's three main elements, or three main colors in alchemy. Is that true? I think white, black and red...

Laura: Yeah, that's right.

Micah: ...and so far we've seen Sirius, Albus, and whoever the third is going to be - they've all died.

Ben: Weasley. [laughs]

Micah: Or - yeah.

Eric: Ruby. Or a Weasley, yeah.

Micah: Or, Rubeus, yeah. Hagrid. So, this would kind of - I think there's definitely an undertone of alchemy in the series, and it's referenced a bunch of different times. So, for her to be an alchemist, I think, would be kind of interesting, and the fact that the stone was initially considered to be in the Potters' vault, I don't know if we should take that as a clue towards anything.

Ben: What about...

Laura: Well, also...

Ben: What was I going to say? Didn't J.K. Rowling say that Harry's parents' jobs were significant?

Andrew: They...

Ben: She should've...

Laura: She said that James didn't need a high-paying job because he had money from his family, but she didn't mention Lily's, and I think that her job might be her secret. Just because, I mean, why would...

Ben: Do you think they were doing the same thing or do you think they would be in separate occupations?

Laura: No, I don't think so. I think - just kind of the impression I got from Jo - what she said was that it would be separate occupations because she almost made it sound like that, James had so much family inheritance that he could've been doing something like working in a store in Diagon Alley, whereas Lily could've been, like, working as an alchemist...

Ben: Bringin' in the big bucks?

Laura: Exactly.

[Eric laughs]

Laura: Like every woman should.

Ben: Bringin' home the bacon.

[Laura laughs]

What Does Thrice Defied Mean?

Eric: I think it's interesting, Lily's possible occupation being alchemy. What I was thinking about the other day, though - this is quite interesting - was that, you know the prophecy says that the parents of the one who has the power defied Voldemort three times. Thrice, thrice defied Lord Voldemort? Well, if you guys think about it, what exactly does that mean, thrice defied? Does that mean that Lily and James Potter specifically were up against hand-to-hand combat with Voldemort, just like Harry has been, three separate times and lived? Like, what exactly would - I mean, we read these books, and they're structured kind of like...

Ben: Well, yeah...

Laura: Well, yeah, I think they would.

Eric: ...well, they're structured like Voldemort has spent all year looking for the stone, or he's spent all year trying to come back. You know? What exactly would the plots have been, I'd be interested to know, where Voldemort would specifically have tried to do something, and Lily and James specifically would have gotten in his way? Not to mention Frank and Alice Longbottom, who were also candidates for that. Do you think it was actually just the whole Order that was thrice defying him or, or is it specifically Lily and James were out there on their own, on a battlefield with Voldemort, as Harry has now been, defying him three times?

Laura: I think it was specific.

Ben: Yeah, I think it was, too.

Eric: I think so, too.

Laura: Because when Harry talked to Voldemort, he pretty much confirmed that both the Longbottoms and the Potters had confronted him three times each, alone. So I think they definitely did.

Eric: Yeah, but that's so interesting. Like, what would they say, "Fancy seeing you here again, Voldemort."

[Micah laughs]

Ben: How do they - yeah - how would they defy him, though? You know what I mean?

Micah: Yeah, that's what I was going to say. If...

Laura: They didn't die.

Micah: Well, no. Defied means that...

Ben: No.

Micah: ...that you would have to not listen to something that he said. Almost like they were...

Ben: Right. Like, how do you do defy your parents?

Micah: Right. So, were they...

Ben: You know, you don't do chores.

Micah: ...in some alliance with him? You know?

Laura: Well, I guess that could go hand in hand with, I mean, everybody thinks that - a lot of people think that Voldemort didn't...

Ben: I wouldn't say alliance. I don't think alliance...

Lily The Unspeakable?

Laura: No, I don't think so either. But, a lot of people think that Voldemort wanted Lily on his side for some reason, possibly because she was an alchemist, maybe. But that would sort of explain...

Ben: Well, something I see here is that, also, there's the thought that she might be an Unspeakable, which would make sense...

Laura: Yes.

Ben: ... why he didn't kill her unless he had to.

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: You know, how he tried to pardon Lily. But some people think that the reason that he did that was because of Snape, because of Snape's love for Lily. But, I don't think Voldemort...

Laura: I don't think so.

Ben: ...would understand love enough to be sympathetic. He wouldn't be sympathetic of that enough to make anything else.

Andrew: Yeah.

Laura: I don't think he would care enough about any of his followers to care about their feelings. So, I think... Yeah.

Ben: So the Unspeakable thing makes more sense, then.

Voldemort, the Elixir of Life and Immortality

Laura: Yeah. I think that either the alchemist thing or the Unspeakable thing makes sense, because if Voldemort was looking for the Elixir of Life and Lily was an alchemist, well, there you go. But, I know that a lot of people - sorry.

Eric: Well, was he looking for the Elixir of Life before he lost his body?

Laura: No, but it wouldn't surprise me if he was looking for it anyway...

Micah: No.

Laura: ... because he goes out of his way to...

Micah: Yeah, I mean, he wants immortality.

Laura: Yeah, exactly.

Ben: But I guess he thought he'd already achieved immortality because, something about Voldemort is, you have to remember what type of character he has and he's a very arrogant person. So, he thinks his Horcrux plan is invincible. He does not recognize weakness, I don't think. So, I don't think Voldemort would be on a quest for the Sorcerer's Stone because he already thinks that he has a foolproof plan right now.

Laura: Well, if he thought he had a foolproof plan, why go and kill Harry?

Andrew: Because Harry's...

Eric: Well, I thought that was to make his seventh and final Horcrux.

Ben: Because of the prophecy. Because the prophecy drove him to do it.

Laura: Yeah, but if he thought that his Horcruxes would save him anyway, why would he go do it?

Eric: Yeah, that's true.

Laura: That's my point. I'm saying that even though he thought his Horcruxes were foolproof, I wouldn't put it past him to go the extra step. I think he would.

Ben: Well, no, the reason that he went to kill Harry was because the prophecy said that this boy is basically going to be his downfall, didn't it?

Laura: It did, but it didn't say anything...

Ben: The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches.

Laura: Yeah, but it didn't say anything about Horcruxes, it just said the Dark Lord. I think that if Voldemort truly thought that his Horcrux plan was completely infallible, he would have - I think that he would have been more likely to try and coerce Harry to come to his side instead of trying to kill him. But, the point is, he doesn't think that he's foolproof and I think that he would go out of his way to try and do whatever he could.

Eric: You guys forget that Voldemort only had six Horcruxes at the time of his death - or only had five Horcruxes?

Andrew: Six.

Eric: His soul was only split into six pieces. Based on, I think - I'm actually almost positive about this - but based on Half-Blood Prince, he only had five Horcruxes there for six pieces of soul at the time that he went to kill Harry, so he didn't think his Horcruxes were imperfect, because he was aiming to have seven pieces of soul. He was aiming to have his soul in seven pieces.

Micah: Yeah, I mean, he wants immortality. That's the thing, and he fears death. The way to make sure he's immortal is to have the Sorcerer's Stone. And what Laura was saying, I think, is correct - if Lily was an alchemist, then she would definitely be on the top of his list of people to have on his side, and maybe even Snape used that as a reason to keep her alive if he really did have feelings for her, by going to him and saying, "spare her," because she's useful.

Ben: He convinced her that way.

Eric: Well, there's an argument.

Micah: She's useful to you.

Eric: We're saying that Lily might have been an alchemist because she was good at potions. Well, guess who else was good at potions? Snape. And Voldemort had him. So, is it possible that the good side had Lily and the bad side had Snape for potions?

Lily and Snape

Laura: Well, you know, someone actually pointed something out about Lily and Snape - how they were both good at potions. And you know, whenever you read back on Snape's Worst Memory, I almost get the impression that Lily is offended beyond the point that a normal person would be when someone you don't like insults you. And someone kind of thought that maybe they were friends - you know, a lot of people think that there was a whole secret love affair going on. I don't. But they think that they might have taken some upper-level classes together and that Lily might have actually helped Snape the way that Hermione helps Harry.

Ben: Lab partners, or something.

Andrew: Yeah.

Eric: Well, lab partners is plausible, but I think it was unrequieted, whatever it was. She felt sorry for Snape.

Laura: No, I - I don't think that they liked each other that way.

Eric: No, I totally think that she felt sorry for Snape but didn't actually - I mean, she... Lily's the kind of person who strikes me as - she respects, you know, humanity. She's not going to insult Snape because he had bad parentage. She's not like that. She's smarter than that. But, at the same time, I don't think she was in love with Snape at all...

Laura: No.

Eric: I just think she was nice enough – nice enough to him and genuinely nice enough that it just sparked... He had a crush on her and he wanted to act on it, but she just didn't feel that way. But at the same time, she's going to stop James Potter from completely humiliating him.

Laura: Do you really think that he liked her, though? Like...

Eric: I'm saying if he did, I don't think it was...

Laura: As a crush? I don't know...

Eric: I don't think it was plutonic.

Laura: I don't really think he did.

Eric: I don't think it was returned love.

Andrew: There had to be some sort of connection there, if they're both into potions and they are sort of what Ben was suggesting to be, lab partners. Because if two people are working together and they might have been helping each other with homework or something, or you know, just a simple thing like a lab, they would have a connection.

Laura: Yeah, exactly. And I always got the impression that, yeah, Snape was good at potions, but he always wanted to be a Defense Against The Dark Arts teacher because that's what he was better at. That's what I always thought and it would sort of make sense that Lily would be a better potion maker than Snape and that maybe she helped him out while they were in school together.

Eric: That's an interesting analysis.

What Would Lily Provide Voldemort?

Laura: Aside from the prophecy, what do you think would be in the Department of Mysteries that Voldemort might want to get to if Lily were an Unspeakable?

Micah: The door. Whatever's in there, I don't know.

Eric: If he knows about the door.

Laura: You don't think that it would like - he would melt if he opened it? If it's love?

Eric: Oh, he would do more than melt.

[Laura laughs]

Eric: Melting isn't just - I mean this is Voldemort, come on.

Micah: What about the weapon that he has now that he didn't have previously? Do you think she could provide him that?

Eric: Well, that's what they thought. Wasn't the prophecy the weapon that everyone was talking about? Because we found out in Book 5...

Ben: The love was the weapon, wasn't it?

Eric: I don't know, was it? I don't think so. I think the prophecy. Because he wanted the prophecy and the Order was talking about him maybe getting a secret weapon that was more powerful than ever.

Ben: Well, I...

Micah: But he never heard the prophecy. He still hasn't heard the prophecy.

Eric: Yeah, I know.

Ben: And what was the weapon, though? What was the - what is the weapon? Do we know?

Eric: I'm saying what if the prophecy was the weapon? Knowing exactly what...

Micah: But didn't Lupin say that he has it now, and he didn't have it before? Or was it Sirius? I forget, but I think it was Sirius that said it.

Laura: Ah, the connection to Harry through his blood.

Eric: I think they said they were looking to have it now. They were looking to have something now that they didn't have before. I don't think they actually have it.

Why Didn't Lily Have a Wand?

Andrew: Another point that we wanted to bring up was, did she loose her powers at some point before her death, because in neither the book or the movie do we see or hear mention of Lily holding a wand or trying to fire curses at Voldemort. She just pleads with him. So if she had a wand or was able to perform wandless magic, why wouldn't she have done so to protect Harry? Uh...

Ben: Oh! That is another anomaly - another abnormality about that night. We just don't know. [laughs]

Andrew: Well it just seems to me that...

Ben: Why wouldn't she? Why wouldn't she? If you had a gun, why wouldn't you use it if someone is trying to kill you?

Andrew: Because she was caught off guard. Maybe she couldn't get - it would seem right, but...

Laura: I don't think so.

Ben: Here is the question: Do wizards carry their wands with them absolutely everywhere they go? Because if you think about - I guess there is no real equivalent to what we have right now, but I'm sure you'd leave it somewhere. "Oh geez, I forgot my wand." You know? I bet that happens.

Andrew: Well, they've come to rely on it though, so maybe they do carry it with them all the time...

Laura: Yeah. And see, at a time of heightened danger like that, they were already barricaded in their house, hiding from them...

Ben: They thought they were okay, though? They figured when you choose a Secret-Keeper - if I was to choose a Secret-Keeper, I would choose someone that I trust.

Eric: Well, they should have chosen Dumbledore, but that's beyond the point.

Laura: Yeah, but I mean the thing is...

Ben: Coulda, shoulda, woulda.

Laura: I think that Lily and James were probably very smart people, and I think that they were aware of all the risks that were out there, and even if you have a Secret-Keeper, a Secret-Keeper can be tortured, and they can spill your secrets. So I think that they were perfectly aware of what was going on. I don't see why they wouldn't be on guard for something like that, especially considering that they had defied him three times before...

Ben: Well, what if they were putting the kid to bed? You know? They're not - I'm just saying, what if...

Eric: Oh yeah, "I'm going to put Harry to bed."

Ben: What if they were getting ready for bed? What if their wand - what if she had already stowed it away at her bedside, and Voldemort busted in? See...

Eric: Ohhh...

Ben: There are so many individual factors, individual details that we don't know, that we can't really know...

Andrew: Well...

Eric: I think it was...

Ben: We can't really make any type of judgment.

Laura: I don't know. The impression that I have gotten from the way the scene was written, was that they were in a living area type-thing, like a living room.

Ben: Now in the movie, they were in...

Andrew: They were in a bedroom

Laura: Like a kitchen or a public area of the house...

Ben: And in the movie they were in Harry's bedroom, correction?

Eric: Well, not at first...

Laura: Well, Lily was. Lily ran in there.

Eric: If you listen to - if you read the book, Prisoner of Azkaban actually, when Harry is playing Quidditch and he hears his parent's voice, isn't it that James says, "Lily, take the boy. I'll fend him off." You know, "for now" or something - doesn't he say something like that, "Lily take Harry up..."

Laura: He says, "Take Harry and run."

Ben: So, then she wouldn't need her wand, so that whole discussion was pointless. [laughs]

Micah: Well... No well... Andew: No, why wouldn't she?

Laura: I don't see why she wouldn't need her wand. She's running from Voldemort...

Ben: She wouldn't...

Laura: Of course she needs her wand.

Micah: Sorry. [laughs] I was going to say...

Eric: I think it is interesting... Yeah, Micah.

Did Lily Know The Prophecy?

Micah: What if Lily's big secret is she knew the prophecy, and that is why she didn't have her wand? She knew that she had to die to protect Harry.

Eric: Ohhh. You know what actually...

Andrew: That is not bad, but...

Eric: That is an interesting question.

Ben: Yeah it is.

Eric: What if Lily and James both knew the prophecy? What if Dumbledore shared it with them?

Andrew: Well if Lily knew, I think James...

Laura: Do you think Dumbledore would lie to Harry about that though?

Andrew: Dumbledore would lie to Harry...

Eric: Did he lie to Harry? Did he tell Harry that he didn't tell...

Laura: Well, at the end of Order of the Phoenix, he said that there were...

Micah: I know what you are saying.

Laura: Only three people who knew, and that was Harry, Dumbledore, and Trelawney, but she didn't...

Ben: All right.

Eric: Three living people who knew? Yeah, three living people who knew. Honestly, if you knew the prophecy...

Laura: Yeah, but I would think that...

Eric: ...the responsible thing for Dumbledore to do would be that he would have shared that prophecy with both Frank and Alice Longbottom and the two Potters.

Andrew: Yeah.

Ben: Oh, no, no! That would be a bad idea, because...

Andrew: Why?

Laura: Yeah.

Ben: Because, that gives - there are more people now that know that prophecy, and who here has read MacBeth? Anybody familiar with the story?

Micah: A while ago.

Laura: Uh.

Eric: You shouldn't say, "MacBeth."

Ben: MacBech hears the three witches' prophecy about...

Andrew: Oh, yeah.

Ben: About him becoming this duke or this king, the king of the whatever - someone send in an email and tell me the exact story, but anyway...

[Micah laughs]

Eric: It's slightly different, but...

Ben: The point of the story is that - I was taught in my English class at least - was that when MacBeth hears the three witches prophesizing his greatness, him becoming great and all these things and his downfall, that's when MacBeth goes nuts. Okay, it's because he creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Okay, so it's the paradox, when these people say these things, are they really going to come true, or do they come true because of the choices that you make? And, if if Voldemort - if Lily and James, and Frank and Alice were to know that their kid could be pinpointed as the one that is going to destroy Voldemort, it could just, it would just completely mess things up. I mean, what would you do if you were told that your kid was The Chosen One, you know?

Eric: Well, that...

Ben: You know? Beause they have that over their head the rest of their lives.

Eric: No, no, no, no, I think they would respond - yeah, but I think they would respond more amicably than that. Why weren't Frank and Alice under the Fidelius Charm, hiding from, you know, what's the deal with that? Why weren't they - why were they...

Laura: Because...

Ben: Because Dumbledore was sure that Volde - wait a second, why wouldn't they be? Why wouldn't they?

Eric: That Voldemort would choose...

Ben: But were they though?

Laura: Yeah, I don't think that we've ever really heard anything about that.

Eric: Well Bellatrix got to them.

Laura: I think they'd already been tortured.

Eric: And tortured them. I dunno, wasn't that on the same night though?

Ben: No no, they hadn't, they hadn't because Voldemort was already gone, they hadn't already been tortured. Or had they?

Laura: No, I think that...

Eric: Oh, I'm forgetting again.

Laura: I'm saying that they'd been tortured by the time Lily and James died.

Ben: Hold on a second, weren't they - weren't they tortured after Voldemort was vanquished?

Eric: I - yeah I think they were because they were holding... They were...

Laura: Really?

Eric: Held in court with Barty Crouch for the torture of Frank and - uhhh.

Laura: Yeah, but that just means that's when they caught them.

Eric: Uhhh.

Ben: Right, but I thought it was a sort of after-the-fact thing.

Eric: But I mean it's interesting.

Laura: I always thought it was before they died.

Ben: It was before they went crazy and on a rampage, and decided to...

Eric: Yeah it's interesting in retrospect that - well I think it might have been before the Dark Lord died though, because all his Death Eaters were kind of disbanded after he disappeared, they were all scared, they had to go back to leading normal lives.

Ben: Right, but look who it was here.

Laura: Yeah, so...

Ben: It was Bellatrix.

Eric: Yeah it was Bellatrix and Barty...

Ben: She's the one who is loyal.

Eric: And a bunch of punk kids, you know? Yeah, yeah. So...

Ben: Here, I'm Googling it.

Eric: Yeah, so it's - it's really curious I think that...

Micah: But why wouldn't they know about the prophecy, though? I mean, think about it, why would they just go into hiding? I mean, Dumbledore...

Eric: No I don't think it means...

Micah: ...just comes up and says, "Hey Potters, you have to go into hiding, but I'm not telling you why." You know?

Eric: Yeah I don't think it's one of those...

Micah: They had an idea, yeah.

Eric: Self-fufilling prophecies either.

Laura: Yeah, I really don't think they knew, because Dumbledore pretty much came out to Harry in that chapter and said, everything that I've ever lied to you about, I'm going to tell the truth right now.

Micah: But see...

Eric: Oh pish posh, he didn't tell them anything.

Laura: So I don't think he would leave out...

Eric: Pish posh. He still won't tell him anything.

Micah: No, no. Okay, a secret. But is it a secret though? Is it a secret to us, or the entire wizarding world. That's my thing. Is it, you know - because if we say Lily was an alchemist, well obviously people would have known that she was. You know? It's - but if, like we're saying, if she knew the prophecy, that's a secret she's keeping from everybody. If that makes sense, I don't know.

Eric: Yeah, I don't think they go boast to their neighbors.

Ben: Yeah, I don't think she...

Laura: Yeah, that's true.

Eric: Well I don't think - I don't know, I don't think they're going to go an boast to their neighbors. "Hey, my kid is better than you kid. Hey, my kid's going to grow up to have the power to vanquish the Dark Lord." And I don't think there is any rivalry between Frank and Alice's result to that, I think it was just a responsible thing to do, to tell them about the prophecy. And whereas I understand your point Ben, with Macbeth, where like, you know, you can't change fate and the more you try to - once you hear a prophecy you try everything to stop it, but it just comes true as a result of you, you know, trying to mess up - mess with fate. But the person who's responsible...

Ben: Trying to stop it, yeah. [laughs]

Eric: Yeah, yeah well the person who is responsible for that is Voldemort, because Dumbledore has also said the prophecy doesn't have to come true unless Voldemort acts on it. If Voldemort chose to leave it...

Ben: They could both just walk away.

Eric: So. So yeah, they could both just walk away, but because Voldemort wasn't going to walk away - like Frank and Alice, and James and Lily aren't the ones who have to worry about tempting fate. You know? I think it could only make sense if they defied Voldemort three times, then they're bound to either be killed or have another confrontation. I mean, they are the, apparently the fore-runners who go up against Voldy, so it only makes sense, kind of, that they were going to die, but I just think it would have been responsible for Dumbledore to tell them that secret. And why else would they have gone that much into hiding? I mean, I - according to Hagrid I think they said the Potters knew Voldemort was going to come looking for them. But, at the same time, that goes back to my other question. Why weren't Frank and Alice under the Fidelius Charm?

Laura: The thing is I don't think it would be responsible to tell four people about a propchey, something that's supposed to be that top secret, even if it might possibly concern them. The point is, you don't know who it concerns. For all you know, there's another wizarding family with a kid somewhere on the other side of the country whose defied Voldemort three times...

Ben: Well I just don't think it would be very customary I think...

Eric: No, no. Actually, I disagree with that

Ben: I bet in the magical world they have sort of taboos around things like prophecies where a per - I bet Dumbledore wasn't even supposed to hear that prophecy. He just happened to be the witness of it. You know what I mean?

Andrew: Yeah.

Ben: I bet if there's a prophecy that's made. Because you know it says at the top so-and-so Trelawney to Albus Dumbledore, and then it says who the prophecy's about, too, right? Am I right? In Order of the Phoenix it has that. And so I bet it's - you don't go around telling people what's been prophesized, cause it's for the people in the prophecy, it's their...

Eric: Well I think they would know...

Laura: No, considering ...

Eric: They would that trying to screw with the prophecy would bring results. They aren't stupid. They aren't dummies.

Laura: Yeah, but how many people - how many people actually know that much about prophecies? Because when they got into the Hall of Prophecy, even Ron, who is a pure blooded wizard, who was brought up in a family - didn't know what the orbs were.

Eric: Doesn't mean the Potters wouldn't've known.

Laura: He had no clue.

Ben: Well, isn't Ron exceptionally ignorant though?

Eric: Especially if Lily was...

Laura: But the point - no - what I'm saying is that...

Eric: Well, yeah and, well if Lily was an Unspeakable, if Lily was an Unspeakable, she would definitely know what the prophecies were about, or a little bit more about them than the average bear.

Laura: If she were, but the point is, not everybody in the wizarding world is going to know what a prophecy is, and the . . .

Eric: Not everyone in the wizarding world was told about the prophecy. I'm suggesting that Dumbledore told Frank and Alice and James and Lily, because it concerned their children.

Laura: I just don't think he would do something like that...

Andrew: Eric...

Micah: I'm suggesting that he told Lily and that's it.

Laura: Yeah, I don't think he would tell more people than he had to.

Ben: And to me it would make more sense to tell the female over the male, too, wouldn't it? Because, it depends on how . . .

Eric: What are you, sexist?

Ben: No.

[Everyone laughs]

Micah: No.

Laura: Yeah! Actually, I think it does make more sense...

Andrew: Why?

Laura: Because even Jo said that there's no - like in her interview with Emerson and Melissa, she said that James's love wouldn't have saved Harry. That it was only his mother's love that could've done that.

Eric: That's crazy.

Micah: And maybe that's the ancient magic. Maybe she had to do what she did - sacrificing herself - in order to, you know, because she knew the prophecy, she knew what she had to do effectively. I don't know..

Eric: I think - I think it makes sense. Guys, I have to go.

Andrew: Okay. Well, all right. Well, Eric, I had a crackpot theory for you, but we'll wait until next week.

Eric: I'm off, I'm off, I'm off.

Andrew: Why do you always have to leave? What the hell do you do?

Eric: Oh, did you?

Andrew: You're in New Zealand . . .

Eric: Well, I'm working. I work at Borders, man, I have to go to Borders...

Andrew: Oh. Oh, okay. I was just wondering.

Eric: ...beause we always record at this specific time.

Andrew: All right, okay. Well, thanks for coming on.

Eric: So you had a crackpot theory for me?

Andrew: I do. We'll save it until next week.

Eric: All right, so bye everybody!

Andrew: All right, goodbye...

Ben: Bye.

Laura: Bye.

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