Laura: And just... [laughs] I learned a new word today! But anyway, I was thinking about Horcruxes and I was kind of wondering why exactly Jo chose this word and what the meanings were behind it, and so I kind of broke down the word and when I typed in H-O-R, ummm, "Hor" [laughs]...
Eric: What - what word is that? What word?
Andrew: Hor. H-O-R.
Laura: [laughs] When I typed that in, I didn't get an answer, but it referenced me to a couple of other entries and I [laughs] got horology, which sounds really bad, but...
Andrew: For all you children listening, H-O-R. Go on, "hor"...
Laura: [laughs] It's the study of interest in time, which interested me because if Voldemort is wanting to be immortal then obviously he's going to be very interested in time.
Eric: Or surviving time. Lasting throughout all time.
Laura: Do you think that there's more to that choice of word or choice of wording than just kind of Voldemort's motivation or do you think that we're actually gonna find out he's been messing around with, say, time, or maybe he's been using a Time Turner, or something along those lines.
Andrew: Well, I think it's also important to decide what "crux" means in terms of Horcrux.
Andrew: You sort of have a definition here. It can literally be "a cross."
Andrew: "A vital, basic or pivotal point." So a point in time? Horcruxes
Eric: Or crossing time.
Andrew: Well, I think...
Laura: Well something else that interested me...
Laura: ...was a "crux" was also listed as something that torments by its puzzling nature or a perplexing difficulty.
Eric: Hehehehe. So like, Sudoku should be called Sucrux. Anyway, I'm out. That was my last stupid line. I have to leave. I'm just leaving the show.
Andrew: Do you think he would call it a Horcrux to imply that they're confusing?
Kevin: Wait, wait, wait...
Laura: It's important to remember that Voldemort didn't name them Horcruxes.
Kevin: That's what I was going to say, yeah.
Laura: Remember he was asking Slughorn about them in his Defense Against the Dark Arts class.
Micah: Well, really, I mean, J.K. Rowling came up with the term.
Laura: It was a pre - yeah, it was a pre-established form of magic.
Andrew: Okay. Well, in that case, whoever came up with them - were they trying to imply that it was confusing? Or could it be - I mean, you know, it could be a few things on purpose.
Kevin: Yeah, but I don't think it has to do with time, necessarily. Because maybe there's something involved in time, with the incantation, or whatever spell you have to cast. But it just seems as though it's a long stretch to say that the person who initially thought of it had the same goal in mind as – maybe, maybe time...
Laura: It's interesting...
Kevin: ...is embedded in the word, just for the fact that it can prolong your time. Or – yeah...
Laura: It relates to time? Yeah.
Micah: Could it be the time at which this torment is occurring? Sort of...
Kevin: Yeah, that...
Micah: ...a ripping of the soul that takes place.
Andrew: But we're talking about being immortal, which relates to time. Timeless. What if a Horcrux – each represents a point in time where his soul is saved? I don't know – that's a little bit of a stretch, but... [laughs]
Laura: Well, we know that time definitely has to play into the meanings somehow. I mean, just because even if he's not necessarily experimenting with time, he's trying to, sort of, utilize this very horrible magic to keep him alive throughout all time. So, it's got to relate, somehow. But, I was interested when Kevin brought up the idea of using a spell to encase the part of – the piece of the soul inside of an inanimate object. Because when you read Half-Blood Prince, Tom Riddle says, "Encase, but how?" And then Slughorn says, "There is a spell. Do not ask me. I don't know." What interested me about this was everything related to Horcruxes is negative. I mean, to develop a Horcrux you have to kill somebody, and therefore you split your soul. Slughorn even said that that was against nature. So, why is it that it's a spell? Because spells aren't necessarily associated with doing anything bad. That's usually curses.
Kevin: Yeah, but – but see the thing is, though, that...
Micah: Where's Jo when we need her?
Kevin: ...the way I think of it, it's...
Kevin: ...splitting your soul, but the spell itself doesn't split your soul. The act of murdering someone does. And it's – and it's...
Micah: Right. The curse does.
Micah: The actual curse splits your soul...
Kevin: So, it's casting the fragment that's already been created...
Laura: Well, then...
Kevin: ...in my mind.
Laura: ...is the spell – is the spell that's used to encase the soul inside of the inanimate object. Is it a spell that was specifically created to aid someone in the making of a Horcrux, or is it a common spell that people use everyday?
Micah: You're going deep. [laughs]
Laura: Because I would think that...
Laura: No, because... [laughs]
Kevin: I would think it's a special spell. I would think it's a very specific spell...
Laura: Well, then, wouldn't it be...
Laura: ...evil? Because it's being – it's specifically used to...
Kevin: Yeah, but, at least my view of a curse is something that you cast to do something harmful to another. But, what I'm saying is that the act of killing someone fragments your soul, so that's a curse. And then you use a spell to take that fragment and put it into an object.
Micah: Right, you're casting a spell...
Laura: Yeah, I guess, but...
Kevin: Because you're not harming – you're not harming someone with the spell. You're – if anyone, you're harming yourself.
Laura: Yeah, but it's also allowing you to take advantage of the fact that you just killed somebody.
Kevin: True, but I think it's like a fine line, I don't know.
Andrew: [says in a sing song voice] Lost.
Laura: How exactly do you – [laughs] how exactly do you think that the whole encasing process happens? This is something that has always interested me.
Andrew: How it's made?
Laura: Do you have to have – yeah, how do you do it? Does that actual object have to be in the room? Or does it have to be something that you're thinking of?
Kevin: I would think that it would have to be in the room, or something that you're at least in contact with. What – the way I always imagined it happening, at least in my mind, was like a Pensieve, except with the soul. Instead of pulling out part of your thoughts, you're pulling out a part of your soul. But at least in that, I guess, view of things you would have to be in direct contact with whatever you're putting it in, in order to actually, you know, physically...
Kevin: ...put it in the object.
Laura: And what happens if you don't encase it? Because the way that Slughorn was sort of describing it, it sounds like when you kill somebody it automatically rips part of your soul from your body.
Laura: What happens to that if you don't place it inside of anything? Does it go away?
Kevin: I would think it...
Laura: Does it, like, [laughs] fly off somewhere?
Kevin: I would say it's lost. Because it would make sense, wouldn't it? If you're damaging part of yourself by actually committing murder, how are you...
Kevin: ...damaging yourself? You are ripping a piece of you soul out. And I would think that it just goes away. Literally, it ceases to exist. So, the damage you've done...
Andrew: Mhm, but...
Kevin: ...is permanent.
Andrew: Well, that makes sense because you have to think about people in the wizarding world who are killing other people. You know? What's happening to their souls? Their split souls? They're not turning them into Horcruxes.
Laura: ...That's very interesting, because – I mean, you look at characters like Bellatrix, who are clearly deranged, and, I mean maybe that's...
Kevin: The more...
Laura: ...what happens; you lose your soul. You just become worse and worse, and...
Kevin: Which is sort of true, even...
Kevin: I mean, even in our real world...
Laura: It's – and see, what's...
Kevin: ...it seems fitting.
Laura: What's almost contradictory about that is, yeah, you are paying the price by losing a piece of your soul, but it seems like the more and more these people do horrible things...
Kevin: The worse they're going to get.
Laura: ...the more desensitized they become, and they keep doing it at increased levels. So, it's not helping anybody that they're losing their morality – you know, their morals and...
Micah: Right, but say one of the members of the Order killed a Death Eater. Would it rip their soul? I mean, what if they were doing it in defense?
Kevin: See, I don't think so...
Laura: Yeah, that's hard.
Kevin: Because – because there's a fine line between murder and just killing. You know what I mean? When you say "murder," it typically means the spiteful act of actually killing someone that does not need to be done. It's not in self-defense, it's not in protection of anyone, you are killing them just for the fun of it. And I think that aspect of it – well, maybe not just for the fun of it – but I think that aspect of it is the part that damages your soul. If you are protecting someone, or you are protecting yourself, and you end up killing someone, I don't see how that would affect your character, or your soul. Because you've done nothing to... It was... There was nothing angry or, you know, there wasn't – there was purpose behind the killing, you were trying to protect yourself. Where as what Voldemort does, and what Bellatrix does, is without purpose.
Laura: Do you think Snape lost part of his soul when he killed Dumbledore?
Micah: Depends if he was...
Andrew: Why wouldn't he?
Laura: It's hard.
Kevin: That depends on the circumstances behind the killing.
Laura: Yeah, but, I mean, how much – I mean the thing is, it's not like... [sighs] It's not like the magic that, or, you know, whatever force in the wizarding world that causes that to happen has any sort of sense to know when something like that was pre-planned. Like – do you get where I'm going? Like even if Dumbledore told Snape to do it, he was still doing something that didn't need to be done.
Kevin: Yeah, but also, do you think – do you think if Dumbledore told him to do it, do you think he enjoyed it?
Kevin: But, my point is, do you think there's maybe some – there's some connection, there's...
Laura: Like maybe if you enjoyed the killing?
Kevin: Well, not only enjoy it, but there's some connection between the purpose of the killing and whether your soul is damaged. Meaning, if he knew that he had to...
Kevin: ...kill Dumbledore, with Dumbledore's permission, or Harry would die, and, therefore, destroy all hopes of Voldemort ever being defeated, right? Do you think that that purpose would have spared him the damage it might have done? You know?
Laura: Yeah, I mean, I guess it could, but then that brings me to the question, would Draco have been spared that damage? Because by killing Dumbledore, he would have saved himself and his family.
Micah: Yeah, but he's killing him with malicious intent, which I think...
Laura: I don't think he was, though, because he faltered.
Micah: Well, he faltered shows his true character.
Laura: You could clearly...
Micah: He never would have killed him. That's the whole point.
Laura: Yeah, but had he killed him...
Micah: Well, had he killed him...
Laura: Do you think he would have been spared?
Micah: ...there would have been malicious intent behind it. You know?
Laura: I don't think so. I would have seen it as more of a pressured killing.
Micah: I don't think he ever would have had the ability inside him...
Kevin: Yeah, same here.
Micah: ...to cast that curse. I don't there's any question about that.
Laura: I don't think so either, but I'm speaking hypothetically.
Kevin: I think that it would have damaged him. Absolutely. At least in my mind, he would have been doing it for...
Laura: For a malicious reason even it wasn't his intent?
Kevin: Well, for one, for malicious and selfish reason. I mean, it was saving his own...
Laura: Yeah, that's true.
Kevin: He - I mean, he was there to save him and his family, but him and his family got themselves into that situation. So, the honorable thing to do would be join the other side and try to salvage it, but the whole reason he was in that situation is he chose not to.
Laura: Yeah, I agree with that.
Kevin: I'm not sure if you guys - I think it was in an e-mail. They were saying that it's interesting that the title was - what was it? Deathly Relics? Is it?
Laura: Mhm. Relics of Death.
Andrew: Relics of Death.
Kevin: Relics of Death. You - some people have been wondering whether the Relics of Death are not only referring to the Horcruxes, but also to the fact that people die over them. That is, people die in their discovery or in the quest to find them.
Andrew: Oh, that's true. So it's - instead of saying, Harry Potter and the Horcruxes, it's just a fancy way of saying "Horcruxes."
Laura: It's a more encompassing title.
Kevin: Exactly. You think of the Horcruxes and how much trouble is going to be, you know, made because of them, and what people are going to do to get them in order to kill Voldemort. And you wonder who those people are and what's going to happen to them in the quest to find them. The Horcruxes, that is.
Micah: Well, I remember - this was back a few shows. One of the things that I had mentioned is that if you look at the Horcruxes that have been destroyed so far, you know, they've cost people their lives. I mean, we're - that's under the assumption that R.A.B. destroyed the locket. He's now dead. And even if you read his letter, he was under the assumption, I think, that he was going to die as a result of what he was doing. You know, Dumbledore died, or at least looked like he was dying, with his whole black hand, which is what you were bringing up earlier, so is it that thing that's going to happen down the line, where people are going to die in order for these Horcruxes to be destroyed? You know, was Dumbledore doomed from the beginning of Half-Blood Prince? I think, you know, if you look at his hand, he was on his way well before he drank that potion.
Laura: Yeah, I think so too.
Kevin: Oh, yeah, I think that too, and you'll actually find it as a theme that when the - when a character is mutilated in some form, they tend to die.
Kevin: You - you see it even in recent...
Andrew: Sooner, rather than later, you mean.
Kevin: What do you mean? What - what was that? You broke up.
Andrew: Sooner... When, when you see - what did you say?
Kevin: Oh yeah, yeah, when you see a character mutilated. Yeah, sooner rather than later. You're absolutely correct. Yeah.
Kevin: So, they're going to die before the story is resolved.
Andrew: Oh, okay. All right.
Kevin: So in that sense alone, I think Dumbledore was fated to die, you know?
Laura: Yeah, I think he was doomed from the beginning of that book.
Micah: Well what if it - on the other side, you're saying Relics of Death. What if they're just the items of the people who were killed in order to make them, as opposed to people dying in order to destroy them?
Kevin: Yeah, that's also a possibility. Yeah.
Andrew: As we can see by discussing this, there's multiple things it could be. It's just like Half-Blood Prince. It was like the prince of the half-bloods or the...the...what was the other one?
Micah: The half-blood prince.
Andrew: The literal half-blood prince.
Andrew: Yeah, so. Well, Hmm, there you go. All right, well, good stuff. As always, if you guys want to e-mail in your rebuttals for that main discussion you can always e-mail...
[Kevin starts laughing]
Andrew: mugglecast at staff dot mugglecast - no, it's not MuggleCast. It's MuggleNet, dot MuggleNet dot com. Guys, it's 12:41 A.M. [laughs] And now we know what's it like when Jamie complains about recording this late at night.
Kevin: I don't.
Andrew: Now I can understand.
Andrew: Let's wrap the show up today with a Chicken Soup for the MuggleCast Soul: Finals Edition. First one comes from Jenae, 18, of California. She writes:
Right now, well, not exactly right now, I am studying for a final exam. I am just finishing up my first year of college and in my philosophy class, I have a major paper due tomorrow, and I have my final. I can never find the right way to study in that the TV is too distracting. And with music I end up dancing around and singing. So today, for a change, I decided to listen to MuggleCast and I am really able to focus better and it's entertaining while I go through all my boring philosophy notes. It worked out, because I had been so busy, there were a few episodes that I had downloaded, but never got to listen to and now I have. Smiles! Well, hopefully I get an "A" with MuggleCast. Wink! Thanks Always, Janae.
Kevin: Hmmm, yeah.
Andrew: So that's good. Yeah. Like, when you guys study do you use music, or...
Kevin: I typically listen to music.
Andrew: Do you watch TV?
Kevin: Although I don't study much. [laughs]
Andrew: Yeah. What kind, though, because that plays a big role too. I'm a - I listen to jazz when I study.
Micah: Yeah. I don't study anymore.
Andrew: Micah, when you did, at Syracuse - music? I don't know how you could study with the TV on.
Micah: No, yeah.
Andrew: I think it would be distracting.
Micah: TV is way to distracting. I don't know, Janae needs to turn that off.
Micah: That might help, first of all.
Andrew: And, podcasts,
Laura: I like instrumental music.
Kevin: Oh yeah, classical.
Kevin: Yeah. Absolutely.
Andrew: Yeah. Yeah.
Laura: ...and movie soundtracks.
Andrew: I listen to jazz. Smooth jazz.
Micah: Well, Andrew, when I was in college, I'm not sure that podcasts were a big thing. So...
Laura: That's how ancient you are, Micah.
Micah: I know.
Micah: It's only two years ago.
Kevin: That's a long time, Micah.
Andrew: Yeah. I listen to jazz and it's very helpful. But we're glad MuggleCast helps her. I could not listen to a podcast and study at the same time. That's like TV.
Micah: Yeah. Hopefully she did well.
Micah: The second one comes from Elizabeth, 15, of Oklahoma. She says:
I was pleased to receive an "A" on an English paper I recently wrote relating Dicken's 'Great Expectations' to the 'Harry Potter' series. I thought this was a great time to send in a Chicken Soup. I have been meaning to for a while. I have been listening to MuggleCast for a little over a year, and, besides being amazing and fun to listen to, listening to you all analyzing 'Harry Potter' every week has made a significant difference in my skills in English class. I now have a better eye for symbols, clues, and picking up themes when reading novels. I wanted to thank you all for the great job you do on MuggleCast, and wanted to let you know you are helping people in even more ways than you meant. Which is the point of all Chicken Soups I guess, right? Anyways, I am also a Pickle Pack member, and all MuggleCast listeners/non-PiPa members...
Micah: [laughs] ...should know the $30 is so worth it.
Laura: Okay, is it Peep-uh, or Pipe-uh?
Andrew: It's Pip-uh.
Laura: Or Pip-uh?
Laura: I like Pipe-uh. Pip-uh is lame.
Micah: All right.
Andrew: You've got to abbreviate it how you pronounce the real phrase. So, pi...pickle, pi...pip-uh, Pickle Pack, pip-uh.
Laura: You don't say, "puck"...[laughs]
Andrew: No, no, no. No, we're just discussing it.
Laura: ...you say, "pack." [laughs]
Andrew: Pip-uh, pip-ah.
Laura: You don't say...
Andrew: Pip-ah. Pip-ah. [laughs]
Laura: I like pipe-uh.
Andrew: Well, you can stick the pipe-uh up your pip-uh.
Andrew: It's too late. [laughs]
Andrew: Hey so, that just about wraps up today's show. We want to remind everyone about our contact information. Laura, what's the P.O. Box?
Laura: Our new P.O. Box is:
P.O. Box 3151
That's "Cumming," spelled C-U-M-M-I-N-G.
[Show music begins]
Andrew: All right. And anyone else could also send in a voicemail question. To do that you can dial any one of our MuggleCast phone numbers. If you are in the United States you can dial 1-218-20-MAGIC. If you're in the in the United Kingdom you can dial 020-8144-0677. And if you're in Australia you can dial 02-8003-5668. You can also Skype the username MuggleCast, just remember to leave your message under about a minute long. And you can also use the handy feedback forum on MuggleCast.com to contact any one of us, or you can always use our first name at staff dot mugglenet dot com.
Don't forget our community outlets. You got the MySpace, you got the Facebook, you got the YouTube group, the Frapprmap, Last.FM, the Fanlisting and the Forums. You can also Digg us at Digg.com, vote for us once a month at Podcast Alley, and rate and review us on Yahoo! Podcasts.
I think that's everything. Every week I'm always like, [in a dumb voice] "I think that's it. I don't really know."
Laura: I had an idea. Really quick.
Andrew: What? What?
Laura: What about the first person to send something to the new P.O. Box gets a shirt. What do you think? First thing we get in the P.O. Box, they get a shirt.
Andrew: Oooh. Okay. Well, I - all right. All right. Sounds good.
Micah: I am sending that right now.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: Micah's got a head start. Once again, thank you, everyone, for listening. I'm Andrew Sims.
Kevin: I'm Kevin Steck.
Laura: I'm Laura Thompson.
Micah: And I'm Micah Tannenbaum.
Andrew: We have no idea where Eric Scull went.
[Andrew and Laura laugh]
Andrew: We'll see everyone next week for Episode 93. Bye-bye.
Written by: Micah, Briana, Christina, Cindy, Eloise, Haley, Jessalyn, Jessica, Jessie, Karen, Laura, Leah, Luke, Margaret, Marya, Matt, Meredith, Rebeca, Samantha, Sapna, Shannon, Shelly, and Tina